SG, you always come up with something worthwhile to contribute, and I feel bad that I just don't know how to give back to you on this one. I don't know where my heart is or what that means. Some days I am afraid I don't have a heart because I am so mad inside. Some days my heart is just numb. I hope you find your answers, and maybe this thread will nudge the rest of us to think more about it too.

Hi SG,
Just for the record, your present T is a keeper! I am so very very glad that you found her, you deserved to find a good place to heal with the incredible drive towards health that you possess.

What an incredibly simple but difficult and profound question! Where is my heart?

There aren't really words to answer that, but I'll try:

It's in box on my T's table, it's in his heart wherever he goes, it's in the heart of my two daughters, it's in my sister's heart, it's in my the heart of a friend in Niskayuna and has been for many years, it's in the heart of a girl from Brooklyn, it's in the heart of girl who detested me for a short time but has been my dear friend for 34 years, its in the hearts of so many dear friends here that I've come to know but have never met in person, it's rested for so long in the heart of my husband, it rests in the hands of my God, from where it can never be taken. It rests in me where it holds all those hearts. It grows to hold as many hearts as it needs to and multiplies to live in as many places as it can. Sometimes it breaks, sometimes it overflows with joy but always it is both at the center and encompasses me. But most of all it's beating and alive and present.

Thank you so very much for asking this. Although I'm about to short out my laptop.

love, AG

Thank you all so much for your replies! Not only do I love learning a bit more about each one of your hearts, but your replies also gave me some clues as to where to look for my own.

Summer - I feel every word of what you said, your pain and your hope. Our hearts really are worth finding just for ourselves!

Mad Hatter - I had the same reaction when my T asked me this. I have no idea what that means. So just sit back and take it in. I hope this thread helps you, too!

Attachment Girl - Thank you for such a lovely and poetic description! Your heart is awesome. And I could almost hear your laptop fizzling.

Hummingbird - As usual, your answer was so compelling and deep I had to reread it a couple of times. I'm still mulling over it, especially this: "So that is where my heart has been discovered in the pain of the hurting i have been running away from for so long." Thank you for the story, too! I love illustrations like that. And I'm glad you liked the "do be do be do" - it is one of my favorites!

Here is a list of some of my favorite things. These are times or memories that make my heart feel happy and/or full:

First hug from the man who is now my husband.
Tickle fights with my daughters.
Hearing my daughters laugh.
Laughing with any one of my siblings.
Getting a new song right on the guitar and playing it over and over again.
Afterglow.
“I Love Rock & Roll” coming on the radio when we’re all in the Jeep.
Dozing on the couch in a patch of afternoon sunshine.
A good talk with an old friend.
Making a new friend.
Warm, crusty French bread dipped in olive oil and Parmesan cheese.
Dancing to a loud 80s rock song.
Resting in a southwest-facing room when it glows with sunshine in the afternoon.
Finding a funny picture of someone in my family from a long time ago.
Strong, hot coffee with cream and sugar.
Getting lost in a good book.
The smell of the earth warming up in the spring.
Red tulips.
Soul kisses.
Falling asleep to the sound of crickets when camping.
Seeing a rainbow.
Receiving a compliment from a child.
Warming up by a woodstove.
Being the first one up in the morning when camping.
Finding the perfect gift for someone.
Watching a man in jeans ride a motorcycle.
Finding out that something you said or did helped someone else.
Being able to see the stars and the Milky Way out in the country.
Slipping on smaller jeans after finally having lost weight.
Finding the perfect cuddle position.

SG,

I meant to address this earlier, but I got caught up in other things.
Do you remember me talking about my soul? Well, I believe my heart and soul are interconnected. And I know I have one, just haven't truly located it yet. But you will definitely be one of the first to know when I find it.

Love ya,
KS

SG,

My bet would be that your heart is just where it's always been, it might just be a little sick at the moment. We all get heart sick, and it's not always about a bad break up or anything romantic. Your heart is so much more than that.

Just as important as your heart is your soul. They're teammates for life, but sometimes they can lose touch, and that's when things get bad.

My heart is all over the place. It's with my close friends, with my mom and dad and my sisters. It's with the music that I love and the natural world that I live in.

But over the past year an a half it's also been in some really bad places, namely in the grip of anxiety, depression and despair. The goal of my therapy is to uncover the reasons for this, to release my heart from this awful place and set it free. I think this is the goal of all good therapy.

Russ

I don't know where my heart is, but I think that I followed it in the past. I think I can hear it sometimes and do what it tells me. But where is it? I don't know.
I think it is with my past friends with whom I felt happy and accepted. I think I left pieces of my heart in some places that I thought were so wonderful. I think my heart also lead me into despair, but perhaps it was something I had to go through? I think I want to have my heart with me and with the people I meet, in the place/places I live and visit. Where is my heart? I don't think it is with my T, because he doesn't ask me for it. I don't know where my heart is.

Just wanted to talk about how therapy is going...and since this week's session ended on the subject of my heart, I thought this would be a good place to post it.

But the first thing I want to ask is, does anyone have trouble transitioning from “small talk” to “therapy talk” when you first get there? When small talk is over, my T just waits for me to start. She never directs the conversation anywhere, she always lets me take the lead 100%. I know this is good…but it drives me NUTS!

The silence in between is so awkward. And I feel so selfish, launching into another “riveting” soliloquy (sarcasm) about me, myself, and I. And she gives absolutely NO hint of what she thinks I need to talk about. She just sits there, attentively waiting, with a smile on her face. I’m telling you, this woman gives me NOTHING to read.

She did let something slip later on, though. I said I had some questions about a couple of things she had said last time, and she REALLY brightened up at that…smiled and said oh good, I like it when you bring things up from last time. So you can bet THAT got filed away for future reference.

So I suppose this is codependent behavior, isn’t it…looking for cues that will tell me who she wants me to be, so I can be that, or who she doesn’t want me to be, so I can hide that. She is always so good at gracefully letting me flounder and fumble my way through the session, that my reaction to this one little comment really stood out. I felt relieved to finally get a clue about what she likes. The strength of it surprised me…I hadn’t realized how intently I’d been waiting and watching for a clue.

On the other hand, all of her patience at my fumbling might be starting to pay off just a little. She said it’s been fun to watch me get animated while talking about certain subjects in the last few sessions. She said it makes her think of a turtle who usually has its head pulled in to its shell, but once in a while its head comes out. I can feel what she’s talking about when I feel really strongly about something, either positive (like smiling and talking faster when I’m talking about gardening) or negative (like scowling, growling, and rolling my eyes when I’m talking about some of the things that drive me nuts about my husband’s behavior). In both cases I start “talking with my hands” too. It’s kind of fun to be the one doing this for a change, instead of watching others do it.

What is really cool is she’s encouraging the openness without giving any indication of how she feels about the specifics of what I’m talking about. She is encouraging me to show my heart without telling me what it should look like. And I think it’s starting to work.

At the end of the session she said that seeing my heart come alive makes her think of the power coming on in an electric fence (she grew up on a farm and it really shows in her analogies). Then she made kind of a humming/buzzing sound to indicate the power coming on. I really liked that comparison and I left with a smile on my face. I like it when that happens.

One thing she mentioned is that in all the sessions we’ve met (weekly for 7 months! where did that time go??) I haven’t cried much. I said I had wondered about that too. When I first started seeing her, I cried a few times (I think out of relief more than anything else!), but not since then. I told her sometimes I wonder if I “grow” defenses the longer I know someone. She said maybe it’s a reaction to getting attached…I don’t know. There have been times when tears have started but I feel myself turning them off and pushing them back. I never thought of those feelings as part of my heart, alongside the enthusiasm and frustration. Maybe enthusiasm and frustration are easier (safer? more acceptable?) to show than sadness.

And yes, I intend to talk about all of this with her. I just wanted to share my mulling with all of you.

A while back when I first mentioned gardening, she asked what kinds of flowers grow in the shade, because she’d like to get something for her apartment but it faces away from the sun. Ever since she said that, I’ve been thinking about it, which has morphed into wanting to bring her some kind of a shade-loving flowering plant as a gift to show my appreciation. She’s never mentioned having a “gift policy”. And I don’t want to ask because that would kind of ruin the surprise of getting a gift. But around Christmas, one time when I came in, she said I could go in and sit down and she’d be right back, and I noticed a gift bag on the floor next to her chair. At first I panicked and thought, oh crap, I didn’t know we were exchanging gifts! But when she came back, she discreetly moved the bag out of sight, so it must have been a Christmas gift from a patient (and then I felt kind of silly for thinking it might be for me ). So anyway, I’m taking that to mean she would probably accept a gift, as long as it’s not extravagant or inappropriate in some way.

My first thought was that I’d like to get her some real gerbera daisies like the fake (but very pretty) ones she has in her office. But they like the sun. After my appointment this week I stopped to look at plants (which turned into buying – very dangerous place for me) and found what I’d like to get her. It’s a salmon-colored begonia, pretty much the same vibrant color as the daises in her office, but it likes the shade (I like them so much I actually got some for myself and transplanted them today into a bigger pot for the shady corner of our house). So what I’d like to do is get a nice-looking pot, put the begonia in it and give that to her. What do you think?

Maybe I’ll even get a tiny little ceramic turtle to tuck in there as a surprise.

Thanks for listening...
SG

Hi SG it's good to hear from you and hear how things have been going in therapy. First let me say that I think your idea of a gift is a wonderful one. Most Ts do not have a problem with inexpensive gifts, especially ones that relate to something you have discussed in therapy. I LOVE the idea of tucking a little ceramic turtle into the pot! That would be a meaningful and significant gift that would tell her that what she said to you made an impact. Ts love when that happens .

And yes sometimes I have a problem switching over from chit chat to the real therapy issues when I get there. Especially if I'm struggling with something difficult that I want to discuss but don't know how to open the conversation. Sometimes I will admit that I have something to talk about but don't know where to start. Other times I sit and wait and hope that he decides what we should discuss but that does not work. Sometimes he will ask me a question and that may get me flowing LOL. It's not like I don't know what to say (I usually have an agenda LOL)... it's the getting started on it that can be hard for me.

Regarding the crying or lack thereof... it took me quite a while to cry with him. I would ocassionally tear up a bit but it would scare me as if my emotions would go out of control and I like being in control so I would choke them back down. I still go back and forth between letting the tears flow freely or choking them down, depending on how safe and how close I feel to my T in that given session.

SG, your new T sounds very patient and attuned to you and I feel that with some time you will find yourself opening up more and more about things and you will finally get to that place where you can let your emotions go.

Hug
TN

quote:

Originally posted by Strummergirl:

But the first thing I want to ask is, does anyone have trouble transitioning from “small talk” to “therapy talk” when you first get there? When small talk is over, my T just waits for me to start.

This might sound strange, but we almost never make small talk. I remember once, I noticed that there was a new bike rack in the parking lot, and asked if it had always been there, because all this time I had been leaning my bike against the side of the building and I wondered how I missed noticing the rack. He seemed very amused by this question, kind of shaking his head and laughing to himself, and then just confirmed that it was in fact new. There has been "smallish" talk during sessions, but it's always related to whatever we're talking about. My sessions always start very officially, like a meeting. We start with an update of what's happened since I saw him last (going over the "minutes" of the previous meeting ), then discuss the agenda for the session. He lists what he wants to discuss, I list what I want to discuss, and we prioritize the list. At the end he writes out a list of what I need to work on/think about until next time. All that's missing is roll call!

quote:

Originally posted by Strummergirl:
She did let something slip later on, though. I said I had some questions about a couple of things she had said last time, and she REALLY brightened up at that…smiled and said oh good, I like it when you bring things up from last time. So you can bet THAT got filed away for future reference.

Yeah, they love it when you ask questions. It shows you're paying attention and thinking things over in between.

quote:

Originally posted by Strummergirl:
So I suppose this is codependent behavior, isn’t it…looking for cues that will tell me who she wants me to be, so I can be that, or who she doesn’t want me to be, so I can hide that. She is always so good at gracefully letting me flounder and fumble my way through the session, that my reaction to this one little comment really stood out. I felt relieved to finally get a clue about what she likes. The strength of it surprised me…I hadn’t realized how intently I’d been waiting and watching for a clue.

Well, codependent is kind of a strong word... but yeah, this is something to be mindful about. Are you normally a people-pleaser? I do this, too. I think it's probably my biggest "issue". I started doing this with my P early on, but it took me months and months to realize it. He calls it my Approval Addiction. And once it starts it's so hard to just stop, which leaves me feeling confused about my own identity, and leads me to want to bail and start over again with someone else so I can be (or re-create) "myself" again. I do this sort of thing in all my romantic relationships, too... OK that's a lot of my crap I just ascribed to you based on this one paragraph, LOL! Sorry!

quote:

Originally posted by Strummergirl:
What is really cool is she’s encouraging the openness without giving any indication of how she feels about the specifics of what I’m talking about. She is encouraging me to show my heart without telling me what it should look like. And I think it’s starting to work.

This is awesome.

quote:

Originally posted by Strummergirl:
One thing she mentioned is that in all the sessions we’ve met (weekly for 7 months! where did that time go??) I haven’t cried much. I said I had wondered about that too. When I first started seeing her, I cried a few times (I think out of relief more than anything else!), but not since then. I told her sometimes I wonder if I “grow” defenses the longer I know someone. She said maybe it’s a reaction to getting attached…I don’t know. There have been times when tears have started but I feel myself turning them off and pushing them back. I never thought of those feelings as part of my heart, alongside the enthusiasm and frustration. Maybe enthusiasm and frustration are easier (safer? more acceptable?) to show than sadness.

I don't cry with my P, either. I've been close a few times, and then he goes and says something like, "It's okay to cry." and I just stop. I take a deep breath, smile, and say, "No. I'm fine." Drives me crazy! I kind of have a goal to cry at my last session (in three days!), assuming I have the courage to tell him why I'm quitting and everything. (Not that he doesn't already know. I just need to be able to SAY IT.)

I think your gift idea sounds lovely. I'm sure she'll be touched. I've considered a gift for my P, but I don't know what I'd get... and frankly, I'm not willing to be that vulnerable. I mean, what if he made a funny face or didn't like it or said he doesn't accept gifts... Yes, I AM that insecure.

I had a T many years ago that was really helpful for me. I saw her for a year and a half, and when the time came for my last session (very gradually, I was "well" and didn't need to go anymore), I couldn't even bring myself to tell her that she'd been wonderful. I didn't have any of this transference crap with her - at least I don't thing so - but still, I couldn't stand to let her know how much I had needed and appreciated her care. Three years later, I sent her a Christmas card and told her. It took three years, but at least I finally did it!

I'm so glad to hear things are going well for you with your T!! I really needed to read this today. I'm "firing" my P on Friday, and have been planning for a few weeks how it will go and what I'll say... and now that I'm getting close, I'm starting to get weak and not want to do it. (It doesn't help that this past week I have seen him out in public almost every day! Who gave him permission to go all Free Range all of a sudden?! Back in your little coop, buddy!) Anyway, point is: This is the inspiration I needed. If I need therapy again, I will see a female T and maybe she'll be as great as yours. (And I won't fall in love with her!)

Good morning all - the transistion from small talk to therapy talk is hard for me as well. I am so used to taking care of others and being so concerned about everyone else, that when it comes to "me"time I'm lost. By the way my T does the same thing, waits for me to start with a smile on her face. It makes me so uncomfortable! I too hate the silences in between.

Smiley

TN and Smiley - It sounds like both of you have experienced all of the same things. It's a blessing to be able to post about this stuff and be so quickly understood. Thank you for the reassurances.

Echo - You and your P sound so organized! I actually like the idea of going over the "minutes" from the previous session. That would take the pressure off on how to get started...hmmm...I'll have to think about that one. And yes, I'm an approval-seeker too. (But only if it's okay with you. That was a joke.) So, you have decided to stop therapy with your P after all. It sounds like tomorrow will be a big day for you. You said you are getting nervous as tomorrow grows closer. From reading your posts, I know this wasn't an easy decision. And there's no way to predict how tomorrow will go. So I can really understand why you're nervous (I'm feeling nervous too just thinking about it!). But I hope at least you get to say everything that's been on your mind, because from what you've described, I would agree that it needs to be said. And it is scary to point out the "elephant in the room", especially if you're not sure the other person wants it pointed out, or how they will react to having it pointed out, and you're in such a vulnerable position right now...so may I say, just naming it is a real act of courage on your part. After tomorrow's session, I would just hope that it's a lot more clear what you need to do next. I will be thinking about you, and waiting to hear how it went.

And if you do decide to try a female T, I hope you find one who is as good a fit for you as mine seems to be for me.

(Oh, and I bought the hanging basket and begonia today...now I just have to find that turtle. )

SG

Hi SG... so glad to hear you bought the plant! My son bought me a small ceramic turtle in a garden store. I keep it on my desk at work. It's funny that you mention a turtle as just last week my T told me I'm a bit like a turtle and I told him how I'm always attracted to watching the turtles at the aquarium. I envy them their hard shell to hide in.

I think I have also seen small turtles in the PetSmart store in the aquarium section... where they are used to decorate tanks.

Let us know how it goes with the gift!

Be well,
TN

Hi all,

Your responses to my last post must have helped even more than I realized at the time, so I just wanted to share a little "breakthrough" I had this week. Remember how I said I hadn't really cried in front of my T, how I always would shut down when I felt tears coming? Well, this week I arrived at my session in a LOT of pain that had been building up (again) over the last couple of days, due to the very situations I'm in therapy for (basically marital and parenting struggles). I tried to resist a little at the beginning of the session, but my T encouraged me a little more that it really was okay to cry, and so the dam finally burst. I cried really hard, just like I do when I'm alone, for almost the whole hour. I also vented my thoughts really honestly about how I've been feeling and what I've been thinking about what's been going on in my life. I know this sounds like a strange thing to count as progress, but, well, I know many of you will understand.

My T was very kind, she just stayed there with me and listened. We both knew there was really no answers she could respond with, regarding what I was saying. Near the end she made sure I looked her in the eyes (because I didn't most of the session) while she told me that she'd heard me and said some other things that validated my feelings, without trying to fix anything or give any advice. And she gave me a really nice hug before I left.

One thing I will say, this kind of thing is exhausting. I've been very tired for a few days now. Crying like that when I'm alone wears me out too, but not this much. I wonder why it would be more tiring this way? Or maybe I just happen to be tired for other reasons too right now.

I've been trying to line up therapy for me and my husband to address the marital and parenting stuff. About a month ago I found a therapist through www.psychology.com who does marital counseling, who also happens to know about attachment theory. My T doesn't know him personally, but she's heard good things about him from a friend of hers who works at his clinic, so I called and had our name added to his (thankfully short) waiting list. When I got home from my session I called to see how much longer it would be, and got a nice surprise: they were just about to get a hold of us to set up the intake process! The first session with both of us is in three weeks, and it's two hours long (plus we bring in a lot of paperwork filled out ahead of time). Then a week later we each meet with him for an hour individually, then another week later we meet all together again for 90 minutes to discuss how to proceed from there. So I'm grateful things are moving forward, and also impressed by the apparent thoroughness of the intake process, because I think we are going to need someone very thorough.

So thanks again everyone for the listening, and the encouragement, and for sharing your experiences. It is helping more than I could ever tell you.

SG

Hi SG. I am so happy for you (not sure if happy is the right word, but can't think of a better one - sad) that you had a breakthrough in crying in your T's office. Sounds like the experience felt good. I would imagine that getting past the wall that tells you to hold it in and it's not OK to cry here might be the biggest hurdle and that once you do it, it might feel really good to be able to give in to it? (Sorry, if I've missed it, but that is what I imagine.) This is NOT at all a strange thing to count as progress. It is HUGE to be able to do this!!

I recently cried in a session more than I had ever before. (except during EMDR - and I always turn so I am facing away from her during it) I forced myself to face her, not look at her, but face her. Very difficult, but felt really good to let her in a little more.

And YES what you are saying about the exhaustion afterward was very much my experience too. I have always been really wiped out after EMDR sessions, especially when I've cried hard, but was never really sure whether it was the EMDR or crying or both.
My T always tells me that this feeling stuff takes a lot of energy.

I LOVE that your T asked you look at her while she told you how she heard you and validated your feelings. Must have felt so good.

I hope your couples therapy goes well for you. I have been there, too - still am.

SG I am so pleased for you. As a non-cryer in sessions I am so very pleased for you because it felt lke a very important validating session for you. And it seemed to have felt safe as well, exhausting but safe. And your T sounded like she was perfect, allowing you to let out what was needed and give you support at the same time. I too like the fact she made you look at her - my T does that when I feel ashamed or unsure and it really helps to confirm that whatever I have said or felt was ok by her.

SG I am still waitng to cry, waiting because I know it is inevitable, my dam is very full and keeps threatening to burst. It is exhausting sitting in sessions fighting it all back. It doesn't happen anywhere else, I suppose I can control it better and don't go to the places I go to in sessions when I'm not there. So thank you SG for describing the process and lettng others know it's ok.

Oh and good luck with the couples counselling. I am glad that the preparation process seems so robust - that bodes well I hope for both of you.

starfish

quote:

Originally posted by Strummergirl:
I tried to resist a little at the beginning of the session, but my T encouraged me a little more that it really was okay to cry, and so the dam finally burst. I cried really hard, just like I do when I'm alone, for almost the whole hour. I also vented my thoughts really honestly about how I've been feeling and what I've been thinking about what's been going on in my life. I know this sounds like a strange thing to count as progress, but, well, I know many of you will understand.

My T was very kind, she just stayed there with me and listened. We both knew there was really no answers she could respond with, regarding what I was saying. Near the end she made sure I looked her in the eyes (because I didn't most of the session) while she told me that she'd heard me and said some other things that validated my feelings, without trying to fix anything or give any advice. And she gave me a really nice hug before I left.

Wow SG, this is a big deal! I'm "happy" for you, too. Your T sounds wonderful. It's so nice that she knows to just listen and not try to fix things. Crying was a huge stumbling block for me in therapy, too. That "relative safety" issue again. I just couldn't do it. Partially because I knew he couldn't just listen to me without offering advice. The few occasions when I did share something "unfixable", he would kind of appologize and say something like, "I wish I had some wise words to offer as advice, but I don't." Then he'd fumble around trying to think some up anyway. (I really don't want to be that person that turns everyone else's story into my own story. I'm going through a "relate everything to ME and MY shrink break-up" phase right now. Forgive me!)

quote:

One thing I will say, this kind of thing is exhausting. I've been very tired for a few days now. Crying like that when I'm alone wears me out too, but not this much. I wonder why it would be more tiring this way?

Crying is exhausting, but I think it's a good thing. The tiredness reminds you to take it easy, be gentle with yourself, you're doing a lot of hard work right now. I know that whenever I start a new job, the first week I go home exhausted every night, even if I've only spend 8 hours sitting at a lab bench or desk. Learning is a workout for our brains, and it's still the physical work of our bodies, even if we don't break a sweat. (And now that I think of it, maybe tears are the sweat of our brains/hearts, so to speak?) I'm sure there's some chemical/hormonal explanation for this exhaustion, I just don't know what it is.

quote:

I've been trying to line up therapy for me and my husband to address the marital and parenting stuff. About a month ago I found a therapist through www.psychology.com who does marital counseling, who also happens to know about attachment theory. My T doesn't know him personally, but she's heard good things about him from a friend of hers who works at his clinic...

So, is there a picture of this T on the website? Is he ugly? I, for one, will never, EVER, hire an attractive man for anything, ever again.