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Why Can't I Feel(Update#2)

True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
What is wrong with me? I am getting worried because I cannot feel my T's care nor can I recognize the empathy he tells me he has for me. Why don't I see it? To me he always seems SO emotionless, so much the same no matter what I'm telling him.

Today's session did not start out well...didn't finish too well either for that matter. I got into my car to drive over and I made the mistake of turning on the radio. The song that happened to be playing was a song very closely associated with my oldT and Thanksgiving of 2009 when I was with him and also carried a theme to the work we were doing and that had finally started paying off in that I was feeling happier, freer, more content and less scared in the months from November 2009 until he abandoned me. And so when I heard the song it triggered me badly and I was crying by the time I got to T's office (5 mins away from my office) and needless to say I really didn't want to talk to him. But I caught my breath and I told him how triggered I was.

I hadn't seen my T for a week (missing a session due to Thanksgiving) and instead of being grateful to see him I was in grief over oldT again. Over the past few weeks I have been reexperiencing a lot of the trauma symptoms again. the nightmares, the anxiety, the sadness, lack of focus and irritability. I told him this and he told me that it was still the trauma and that I won't begin to really heal until I let oldT go. I told him I can't. He asked me if I really wanted to? I told him I don't know how. He again asked that question and I gave him the same answser. Then I told him that if I let go of oldT there will be a huge gaping empty space inside of me because he is so much a part of me.

My T told me that I know enough of therapy to know that to heal you need to go through a lot of fear and pain and that is what i needed to do to get past the trauma for good. Well gee, you mean all the horror and pain of the last year didn't count?? Eeker Wasn't that enough? I told him that I was not ready to do that because I felt he would not be there for me and he would leave me alone in the endless black hole of nothingness.

We talked about how when I started to get better with old T what happened next. I was abandoned. He told me that I keep trying to get him to abandon me too and that I was just waiting for him to fail me but he wouldn't. And I told him...yeah right, everyone fails me.

Then we spent some time again talking about oldT and how I did therapy with him and how it made me feel and how well I did and how much progress I made there ... and my T said yes until oldT got scared and bailed on me. I think that is what is so hard... it was not like I was not improving or working hard in therapy. Things were going okay and I was growing and feeling good and then... it was all taken away from me so suddenly. It was just gone.

I told my T that it was a bit disconcerting to find a huge chink in HIS armour and he nodded and said I would probably find some other ones and that would be good. I said why would that be good and he said because then I would know that he is not perfect and that is good because then I would not have to be perfect either.

He told me that I was very protective of oldT and that I was really angry at him but couldn't express it and I asked him if he thought I was being protective when I read him my speech during our last session and he said no, not then I was perfect then and really amazing. So I just stared at him a moment and said in a whisper... I miss him and I miss Tdog too. My T said that he could understand missing Tdog because at least he fulfilled his role. He said he remains amazed that my oldT was so unknowledgeable about therapy after getting a Ph.D. Then he reassured me that all my reactions were perfectly normal for what I'd been through.

Going back to when we were talking about me being angry at HIM I told him that somehow between Wednesday and Saturday he morphed from good T to mean, scary, detached, coldhearted, disinterested T. He said I was the only person in his 20 years that applied ALL of those adjectives to him at once. He said that he had heard one of those words on occassion but not all together. He said he also knows that I think he has no empathy for me.

I am so confused and I just don't know what is going on with me. Why can't I feel his care or even recognize his empathy. Is it there and I can't see it? What does it "look" like? Am I blind to this? I don't "feel" his handshake, it's like my hand is numb. I keep thinking I'm just an object of curiosity for him. I told him I know I'm "challenging" as a patient. He smiled and said that I create just enough anxiety to be really enjoyable. Whatever that means. I told him at least he does not fall asleep with me and he said oh god forbid who knows where we'd be if I ever dozed for a second with you. Not sure if that was a compliment or not. Towards the end he gave me my 5 minute warning and I looked startled I guess. I felt like I just got there. He said "you really DON'T know where we are in the session do you?" I shook my head no. I think again this is because his sessions are 45-50 minutes and I always had a minimum of an hour or 70 minutes with oldT and now I just feel like I'm getting started when it's ending and I continually leave frustrated.

He also mentioned something intersting that I had heard of but was not sure of the meaning. He said I was in a reaction formation. I'm not sure if he meant with him or with oldT. I did some research to try to understand it and it's a complicated kind of defense discussed in psychoanalysis. I need to go back to discuss this further with him. XOXO... I'm sure you are well versed in this term.

And so...we never discussed touch or our disruption or the hundred other things that are weighing on me. At this point I can't even imagine going back to that discussion. I am just too scared. I think right now unless I can SOMEHOW feel his empathy and care I am not going to be able to do any other work. I'm stuck.

TN
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kashleykashleyMember
((((TN)))))

I'm so sorry things are rough right now with T and with everything. Gosh, what awful timing to hear a triggering song on the way to a session. Frowner

As far as your current session goes, I like the way your T reacted, but to be completely honest I kept waiting for the hug conversation to come back up because it seemed like the giant pink elephant in the room. For you, at least. I could be totally off, but it seems like that's going to hinder your work with your T for a long time until it's worked out. But I also completely understand why that's such a sticking point. I'm lucky with my T that she allows touch, but it gets a lot more complicated with a male T. Not saying that your T doesn't owe you a bit more of an explanation, though. Not quite sure what I'm saying here, but I honestly have nothing of any worth as far as how things are going with your T right now. I'm just sorry for what you're going through lately, on top of what you're already dealing with.

Yeah, reaction formation is pretty complicated. As far as I understand (which isn't very much..I've only studied it briefly) it is pretty much when you form the exact opposite reaction of what comes naturally to you. So, if you're on the brink of feeling very close to T, if you're in reaction formation, you'll feel like you're in the exact opposite position simply because feeling close to T is too threatening.

Anyway, I'm sorry you feel stuck right now. I know it doesn't seem like it right now (I've been there!), but you will move past this and be able to reconnect with T. He isn't oldT...he isn't anything like him. He isn't going to abandon you, and he'll keep trying to help you in any way he can. I know that doesn't mean much. But from all I can see, he is a good, competent T, so I have faith that you can work through this.

Many hugs and warm thoughts!
I incognitoMember
(((TN)))

I'm sorry that you can't feel your T's empathy and concern for you. I can relate because I often can't feel my T's either. During my session today I had a very similar conversation with my T today. I'm glad you could talk to him about your pain about oldT and your increase in trauma symptoms.

I think reaction formation is a very interesting idea. I think it fits with old T and it fits with his idea that you are protective or old T and unable to express anger at him. In that sense I guess the idea is you are really angry and hate oldT for what he has done (which is how I feel on your behalf) but you are complusively and inflexibly avoiding those feelings by being only aware of your good feelings about oldT. Of course it could work with him to if he believes that you do feel his empathy and care and are disowning that belief by talking constantly about his lack of empathy. That is interesting to me because my T sometimes corrects me when I am saying I don't think he cares by saying sometimes you don't think I care. Blah, it makes me angry just writing it.

I think it is good self-care to work on feeling his empathy before you do some other work. Feeling his empathy is probably necessary before discussing touch or your disruption anyway because part of that conversation includes other ways besides touch that he can comfort you and it is hard to imagine feeling comforted by him if you can't feel his empathy.
S sadlyMember
Again I hesitate to write but I too wonder if it is about the reaction formation:

quote:
Why can't I feel his care or even recognize his empathy. Is it there and I can't see it? What does it "look" like? Am I blind to this? I don't "feel" his handshake, it's like my hand is numb. I keep thinking I'm just an object of curiosity for him.


When with my P I often feel my hallmark distress feelings: alone, abandoned, hurting, frightened of being seen like this, confused.

When I am feeling all that, it is impossible for me on the feeling level to feel cared for or feel that P has ANY empathy whatsoever. I am in the OPPOSITE feelings.

But strangely, when I reach out and hold his hand, no matter what negative distressing feelings I am feeling, I feel his care. And we reconnect. That is why I am such an advocate of touch. It is basic to our primary needs. It is fundamental to the way we are wired, neurologically. It is our major communication mode and has been for thousands of years. The therapists can rail against touch all they like, but they are going against the way we evolved and how we are wired in our brains and nervous system to receive information about being cared for.

I know some of you will want to jump on me for saying that, especially those of you who don't want to consider that your T might be doing something harmful through lack of a wider perspective, but I stand my ground on this one.

I am sorry you grappling with this right now. it will resolve. Somehow I trust your T enough, to be aware that it will resolve somehow. how it resolves, I don't know. Never ever be ashamed that you know that you need a hand to hold or a hand on your shoulder. it is very brave of you and very courageous of you to dare to reach out and ask for this when you have been hurt in the past so much. I cheer your bravery. I rejoice in your ability to acknowledge such a basic normal need. And I weep for the impasse you are in right now.
S sadlyMember
That was very insightful of you Monte. Yes, sometimes for me too, I am numb in side and a major shift has to take place.

I think I am doing brilliantly on the crying stakes - I can cry for Europe. These days once I start, in session or out, I just sob and sob until I am left spent. I wish I could hire out the crying to someone else. I once told him he could do half of the crying bit for me. Smiler

Anyway, back to topic, this process does indeed require all sorts of shifts inside, some of which we haven't even thought of a name for yet!
serenitylakeserenitylakeMember
Hey TN

Oh my goodness - you are having a tough time. I'm so so sorry. All I can say is that I have had those black hole moments when you feel totally isolated, even from my lovely T, and in a huge amount of pain and they are utterly grim. I was surprised the feelings didn't literally split my body in two - that I could actually physically cope with that much pain. So take heart dear soul, you are not alone. I'm sure a lot of us here have felt that - and the good news is, got through it. If there had been a choice I would've walked away but I knew there was nothing to do but plough on. And I can't help but feel the same is true for you and your dear T. It just feels like you are up agianst a strong part here but once you and your T have managed to work through it you will have achieved something amazing. And I could be wrong, obviously only you will know, but for me it feels like the whole touch question may not actually be at what is at the heart of your current pain.

Sadly - it is great for you that your have such a connection wtih your T and that the touch really is an amazing source of comfort to you. I have no wish to jump on you but I have a no touch therapist and that works best for me. I can't really believe there is an absolute right and wrong answer to the whole touch debate - but don't get me wrong it's fascinating to hear everyone's experiences.

Monte - this:

quote:
And then there's the awful, sobering truth that the feeling we are wanting so desperately to capture and hold onto cannot come, because we cannot experience the bliss of being a child enveloped in the loving care of healthy parents. We get one shot at that and if it gets fouled up, too bad...we have to deal with the fallout later on (now).


so beautifully puts how I feel too so I thank you for sharing.

Big virtual hugs to you TN

Serenity
L lieseMember
((((((TN))))))

I know it won't be any consolation but it took me a long time to feel my t's care. Well almost 4 years to be exact. But I do feel it now. Lots and most of the time. If that gives you any hope.

I really related to what you said to your t that if you let go of Oldt there wouldn't be anything left. I kind of do feel Like ive let go of some of my ghosts and it IS scary. I axtually just recently said To my t that it's all gone and I guess all that stuff was just keeping me company all these years, filling a void in my psyche where maybe a more positive sense of myself should be.

So maybe that's the answer for you too, that as you build a stronger, more positive sense of yourself, you will be able To let go of old t. It won't be as scary. It's still scary for me because I don't feel like the new scaffolding is in place yet. But that's why we lean on our t's until the new stuff is there.

I know you were upset about newt and the fact that he didnt offer you an appointment Ti make up for the missed session. Do you think that anger had anything To do with the fact that you couldn't feel his care yesterday? And that you kind of fell back on Oldt? That maybe it's too frightening to deal with your anger towards newt?

It sounds like you have trouble with acknowledging your anger and that this is what new t is trying To tell you about Oldt, that you are really angry at him but it's so unacceptable Ti you that you focus on the love feelings. So if acknowledging your anger towards Oldt was a problem them acknowledging your anger towards newt might be s problem too?

I have trouble recognizing and acknowledging my anger. But my T tells me it's important, that it will protect me. So I am trying to tune into it a little more.

Anyway, in short ( ) it will take time for all these wonderful things to happen, to be able to build your sense of self, and recogniZe your anger, and let go Oldt. Rome wasnt built in a day, you know. Wink Be gentle with yourself.

Xoxo
Love
Liese

Ps I am editing this to add that I am sorry for all the typos. I am typing from my phone and it is not an easy task! My computer died.
sdsdMember
Oh TN - big hugs to you my friend. You are feeling so much pain these past few weeks.

I am in the perfect heaven place with my T - she is doing everything right and I can't ask for more. I had a session today and I am understanding what she is doing, where she is at, we are both in tune. I am feeling a bond. Yes this last week I had major trauma flashbacks with youngT and the termination - but with T I am feeling her care and the safety of the bond.

So I read your post from my point of view and from my T's point of view.

If I said to you Trust ME - your T is doing all the right things as far as a great DBT T goes - would you be able to take that in? Your T reacted with you today and did just what my T would have done. He is there for you, he is being consistent, he is caring so much (even if you don't feel it) he was in tune with you and he took you back for you to remember old T and to retrace your steps. I think he knows exactly what is going on for you and he is there.

I think you can't feel his care because you have been injured these past weeks and you are grieving for something your T can't or won't give you. That is ok that you are lost right now. You are going through a setback. Your T will be patiently waiting for you to catch up again.

My T said one of the most important things she and I have to prepare for are setbacks. She said setbacks are just opportunities for us both to do something a little different.

Be gentle with yourself right now. That song! Those things happen to me a lot - it stuffs my head up! It seems that everything gets thrown at you when your resistance is low and you are the least able to cope.

I think you need a couple of sessions of bonding with your T to go back and feel those wonderful attachment feelings again. He will be even more consistent, boring, predictable, present, stable and right there for you and he will be waiting for you.

Keep in touch, keep writing, keep processing, be kind to YOU.

SD
L lieseMember
Hi again TN,

Tired of editing that last post so thought I'd start a new one. Just wanted Ti say that I totally agree with Monte in that time alone isn't the answer and I know the way I started my first post might have implied That. What I really meant To point out there is just that you've only been with him a relatively short time and building that trust is a process IMHO Monte is so right on in that it has Ti be worked at. It seems as though there must be at least one or more things bothering you about newt or a need that isn't being met and that's why you are blocking feeling his care. And you may not know the answer now but there is am answer and it will, hopefully, become clear as you work on this with your t.

And I just also wanted to add
That while you know how much I crave and don't get touch in my own therapy, I am not entirely convinced that it is THE answer here and is what is blocking you from feeling his care. And I am not entirely convinced that a loving, caring relationship with a t can't be built without touch, as we've seen it happen with at least one person here in the forum, namely AG. And I am getting there too with my t. Even though I still crave the touch so much, it does not prevent me from feeling his care for me. And while at one time his stance on the issue did make me feel like I was repulsive, his care for me us reaching me at such a deep place that I don't feel repulsive anymore. I still long To cuddle with him but I just think that is a natural outgrowth of the closeness, warmth and affection I feel for him. So while it is important for you Ti explore this issue with him and how maybe your anger and Hurt in reaction To not getting those needs met might be interfering with you feeling his care, the issue in and Of itself might be a red herring.

Xoxo
Love
Liese

Ps still
Typing from my phone. I don't know why my phone thinks Ti is a proper noun. I try To type "to" and it changes it to Ti.
yakusokuyakusokuMember
(((TN)))

I'm sorry that I'm not in the greatest place to offer any wisdom. I do want to say that despite the nature of my own therapy, I am often numb to physical contact with T. It takes a lot to break through that and often it is not even me feeling any of the goodness of it, but a cp. Sometimes, even the physical sensations are muted into almost complete non-existence. From all I've written here, I'm sure everyone considers my T to be very empathetic and compassionate and from an outside perspective, I believe it. It is a strong point for him. Yet still, there are many times when I go to those "zoo exhibit" feelings that I know you share. It is less so as our work continues, but I am often incapable of taking in what he has to offer, no matter HOW it is offered. It is maddening. Monte has said some very wise things on this that are better than I could ever do myself. I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. There is a reason you went numb, probably overloaded with pain and never having enough comfort to deal with it. If you aren't numb in the face of very real trauma you're confronting right now, it probably feels like it will wash over you like a wave, pull you under and drown you. Feeling my T's empathy, when I can, is like that. A giant wave that gives me access to more pain...but sometimes I can't deal with more pain and I guess I just have to be numb. Frowner I'm sorry everything is so stuck. I do hope you are able to talk to T about the whole touch thing again soon, as it seems it will be an obstacle otherwise. Even to find out if prolonged contact of any kind (sitting very close, hand on arm for longer periods, etc.) is possible. Just like the shorter session times were impossible for me, a single brief contact feels like almost nothing at all. Also, if my stuff is triggering, please let me know and I can take it down. I know it is hard. I wish I could make it better. ((((TN and the scared, alone-feeling little one))))
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Thank you all for your wise and insightful responses. Before I get to them I just wanted to say that I went back to an older thread of mine dated November 7th and there was such a different feeling to it. I noted in the post that I actually felt my T's caring and empathy because of the way he looked at me and in some of the things he said. It the session after little TN gave him that first note and he said he loved it. We were very attuned then and he shook my hand twice before I left him. That was the last (of the recent 6 sessions) time I felt any attunement with him. It was right after that when I approached him about touch and hugs and he reacted so badly and I was so stunned by his response and the rejection that came with it.

So I would say that this run of misattuned and disconnected sessions is related to what happened. I have always struggled with the feeling of lack of empathy and caring from him. And I purposely use the word "feeling" because intellectually I know that he must at least care a little because I can tick off all the stuff he has done for me, first and foremost, he has always been there for me when I needed him. But this does not reach me on that emotional, right-brain level. It seems to me that I get right brain reactions from body language, touch, facial expressions and tone of voice. I am constantly scanning him but I pick up VERY little and this may be due to his analytical background. Old T was VERY expressive in many ways that my limbic system just reacted to.

Aside from this, I just may be unconsciously blocking anything good from him because I am either too scared to feel it or too angry to feel it. I am very shut down these days since the pain of his rejecting my request for further touch. It's like a steel wall dropped down and it has been decided that he will NOT be allowed closer to me to hurt me again by rejecting me. I got a taste of it with that touch conversation and I'm not going there again. He suddenly feels very threatening to me. And his obvious discomfort with the subject has me avoiding this discussion with him. Hence, being stuck.

kashley, thanks for your post. You are correct about the pink elephant in the room and that until it is settled in some way it will hinder my work with him. The way you explain reaction formation is pretty much how I understood it. Thanks for the hugs and warm thoughts and the encouragement that I can work through this with T.

incognito... I'm really sorry you also experience this with your T. It really sucks. And you are correct that reaction formation could fit with either T exactly the way you explain it. I could be so busy defending myself from being hurt (again by a T) by my T that I won't allow him to mean anything to me and so instead I attack him and accuse him of being cold and unempathetic. I hope you can also work through this with your T. How's is the puzzle going?

Monte... what you say is so profound... My heart is numb and not my hand. Wow. As I said above, I am so well defended against being hurt again by a T that I don't want to care about my T or allow him close to me because then it gives him the power to hurt me. I would have to guess that so much of what goes on with me relates to oldT because I just cannot even imagine allowing that to happen to me again. You are also hitting on something important... that we look so hard for evidene of their caring... the tone of voice, the touch, the expression that we cannot see the other things they give us. My T has given me a lot of things that I needed or asked for and I know this but I cannot FEEL it. I remember that day he cancelled my appointment and I called him crying on the phone how upset I was and an hour later he called me back and offered me a later in the day appointment because he knew how upset I was and he didn't want me to suffer. I only feel ungrateful when I remember these things. And you are so correct when you speak of missing that one and only chance of really have those needs met by a healthy parent and if we miss that... well we end up dealing with this in therapy.

I appreciate you sharing the experience with the email. I'm glad that all worked out.

I'm going to post this now and come back to the other posts in a bit...

Thanks again
TN
blackbirdblackbirdMember
quote:
He told me that I was very protective of oldT and that I was really angry at him but couldn't express it and I asked him if he thought I was being protective when I read him my speech during our last session and he said no, not then I was perfect then and really amazing. So I just stared at him a moment and said in a whisper... I miss him and I miss Tdog too. My T said that he could understand missing Tdog because at least he fulfilled his role. He said he remains amazed that my oldT was so unknowledgeable about therapy after getting a Ph.D. Then he reassured me that all my reactions were perfectly normal for what I'd been through.

Going back to when we were talking about me being angry at HIM I told him that somehow between Wednesday and Saturday he morphed from good T to mean, scary, detached, coldhearted, disinterested T. He said I was the only person in his 20 years that applied ALL of those adjectives to him at once. He said that he had heard one of those words on occasion but not all together. He said he also knows that I think he has no empathy for me.


Hello, TN- I am so sorry that your session hasn't left you feeling very much better. Reaction formation- sounds like an interesting idea. I'll have to google that one.

I was wondering if this will resonate for you, dear TN. I find that when I think of Guru T, I still get warm fuzzy feelings- or the memory of warm fuzzy feelings at least. It's like my old T zapped me with love feelings or something. I *did* at times, feel as Monte put it so well:

quote:
the bliss of being a child enveloped in the loving care of healthy parents.


For me the concept of touch plays directly into that feeling of bliss. There were times with my old T, where I could feel touch- even over the webcam- and it "zapped" me. I would float for days.

What I am wondering now, has to do with warm fuzzies. I get none of those feelings with the Cowboy T. I go looking for those feelings by googling old T. ( I hit the jackpot recently, I may have to post about it Roll Eyes )

So my question for you is this: is it possible that you are fending off the empathy of your T because it feels less pleasurable to your inner child, than the empathy of old T did? Could it be that your inner child is angry that the empathy of new T (your T) "doesn't feel the same" as the empathy of old T- so she is making you feel inside that his empathy is worthless an not something that you can connect to emotionally- she needs to protect what old T gave her, because it was the same thing you got from your parents. ? Because if the empathy of your T is worthless- then what you got as a child is love. and your inner child does not want to accept that the love she felt from old T was the same thing that you got from your parents. So she is making that what she longs for, to protect against the pain, of being so unloved as a child, and being forced to meet the parents emotional needs. I like Monte's analysis of feelings- she is spot on, as usual, IMO. Our feelings are so important- but acting on our feelings or believing that our feelings are a reflection of absolute truth is not always the best choice, because our heart wants what it wants and will pursue it at all costs. It doesn't always do what is best for us. Sometimes it does. But you know all this stuff better than I do, so I hope I don't sound patronizing...

quote:
Or maybe we are so unfamiliar with love and care we simply do not recognize it...maybe in it's absence we have built it into something far more elaborate than it is. Maybe love and care are very simple to look at. And then there's the awful, sobering truth that the feeling we are wanting so desperately to capture and hold onto cannot come, because we cannot experience the bliss of being a child enveloped in the loving care of healthy parents. We get one shot at that and if it gets fouled up, too bad...we have to deal with the fallout later on (now).


This is so beautifully put, that I had to keep reading and re-reading it. It captures something I've been trying to pinpoint in my head about therapy with the Cowboy for a long time. that maybe love and care is less dramatic feeling than we think it is. It's hard to accept this reality in place of the drug-like feelings induced by T's we lose our hearts to. I've been wondering and pondering something for some time now. It may cause a flurry of forum panic, Big Grin but I'm gonna ask the question, anyway, TN...it's this:

Is it possible, that when we "fall in love" and feel that blissful, euphoric state with a therapist- that it is because the T has actually made a *mistake* in our therapy? Could they be letting their counter-transference interfere with our healing when we experience the "warm fuzzies" as we like to call them on the forum??? I think there was something with my old T- I bet I wanted, desired counter transference to happen with him- even if it was in the form of anger, or negative counter-transference- because it meant that he cared *personally* for me, as a man, not a therapist. That I could actually get through to him and meet some of his needs for love! That I could actually be pleasing, or conversely displeasing to Him. And I get the same "drug-like" feelings when I find something on google of old T's. because I've pushed past the boundaries, or created a situation of "pseudo-countertransference?"
If I get no warm fuzzies- does that mean that the T, is keeping his boundaries so tight, that he will remain a therapist, and only a therapist, with absolutely no hope of anything more such as- authentic feelings of love or need from the therapist? And can I work within those parameters- is it even *worth* it to me? On the heart level, or the level of my inner child- it is not worth it, there is *no* point. But my intellect says...well, hang on there, maybe you can learn something here that will help you become more satisfied with your life. Inner kid says "fuck off, intellect- I just want cuddles!"

I'm really struggling with this! Sometimes I think there *needs* to be a little bit of counter-transference in the room, otherwise...it's *so* uncontaminated that it's...sterile. Sterile can feel very pointless to the inner child? Sterile can even feel scary to the inner child. And- isn't therapy all about letting the inner child out? So what is the answer?? I'm really stuck on this one. Really stumped.

Oh, now my thoughts are spinning around again- I'd better go.

(((((((TN))))))) much love on your journey- thank you for sharing once again your session with us- I've been waiting to hear how it went.

Love,

Beebs
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
Is it possible, that when we "fall in love" and feel that blissful, euphoric state with out T- that it is because the T has actually made a *mistake* in our therapy? Could they be letting their counter-transference interfere with our healing when we experience the "warm fuzzies" as we like to call them on the forum??? I think there was something with my old T- I wanted, desired counter transference to happen with him- even if it was in the form of anger, or negative counter-transference- because it meant that he cared *personally* for me, as a man, not a therapist. If I get no warm fuzzies- does that mean that the T is keeping his boundaries so tight, that he will remain a therapist, and only a therapist, with absolutely no hope of anything more? And can I work within those parameters- is it even *worth* it to me?

I'm really struggling with this! Sometimes I think there *needs* to be a little bit of counter-transference in the room, otherwise...it's *so* uncontaminated that it's...sterile. STerile can feel very pointless to the inner child?


Beebs... I'm pressed for time right now but I had to tell you that what I quoted above is very much spot on for what has also been going around and around in my mind with no place to put it. I'm struggling with it too. I think you and I have understood this very well because of the different experiences we had with our oldT's and our current T's. I think it is very probable that what we felt ... those warm fuzzies... were a therpeutic mistake ... I think that our oldT's probably allowed too much of their own feelings into the room and that is what we responded to, while our new T's are both very boundaried. And maybe this ... in the very long run... is healthier for us but it certainly does not feel good at all. Instead of banging our heads against a soft cushion we are banging our heads against steel walls. And of course we want SOME counter-transference, we want some sign that our Ts care about us or how can we spill our guts to them and trust them. IDK, Beebs, on some level I may at least be able to see the merit in those boundaries and the lack of warm fuzzies but I don't think it's a boundary breaker to allow touch, nor do I think it's a boundary breaker to show a bit of compassion either. This is all just so painful, so horribly painful.

Thank you so much for your post and please don't delete it. I want to come back later and read it along with everyone else's too.

Hugs to all
TN
B bltMember
quote:
Is it possible, that when we "fall in love" and feel that blissful, euphoric state with out T- that it is because the T has actually made a *mistake* in our therapy? Could they be letting their counter-transference interfere with our healing when we experience the "warm fuzzies" as we like to call them on the forum???


I have a slightly different thought about this.

Most of us here probably have a flawed template for "love." For example, for the longest time, "love" for me was most triggered by encountering someone who seemed to offer a little care or attention, but was ultimately controlling or emotionally unavailable. I was incapable of feeling love for anyone who reciprocated in a normal, healthy fashion.

Now that I am happily married, the love I feel for my DH is quite different. It's a much lighter, happier feeling which I greatly prefer, but there is substantially less intensity in it. For this reason, at first I found it very hard to recognize.

This is why I suspect that for those of us with bad experiences with our FOO, receiving genuine, safe love from a T will feel unfamiliar at first and possibly very hard to absorb or accept. It might also feel scary at first to some of us. It's not what we've come to associate with love. On the other hand, if we start to feel very intense feelings towards our T's of the sort that we associate with love (not just a pleasant warm fuzziness, but something more dramatic), it means that something in the relationship is reminding us of our previous experiences. This *may* mean that the T is out of line (for example, is controlling, or needs us for his/her own purposes, or has poor boundaries). On the other hand, it may just be signaling something that *happens to remind us of* something in our past, even though it's not actually abusive. For example, if your T has rigid boundaries around contact, you might experience this as similar to how your own parents were unavailable, which could trigger some very strong transference.

So in short, maybe how you feel isn't necessarily a reflection on the T's success or failure, but it *could* be a symptom of that in certain circumstances.
L lieseMember
(((TN))))

Just wanted to add that I think you are onto something with the nonverbal stuff because if I remember correctly up to 90% of communication is done nonverbally. My T is also very hard to read and I think it is done deliberately because I am good at reading into people and reading their needs in an attempt to take care of their needs so that they come to rely on me. I don't know if you do that as well. But it could be that your T is masking the nonverbal stuff intentionally to get you to become aware of what you typically look for in relationships, how you look for caring, and to get you to verbalize it instead of acting behaviorally.

xoxo

Liese
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Had a busy day which I guess was good because I didn't have a lot of time to think and I was also struggling with focus which is not good for being productive at work. So I'm back now.

Sadly, thanks for weighing in and holding your position respectfully. I believe a patient should be able to ask for what they want/need in therapy and then it's up to the T to decide what is appropriate to the specific situation. If your T is willing to be flexible and adjusts his position on touch then that is his professional judgement and great for you that you could work it out together. I suppose we will work it out too and I have no idea what that will look like but I'm hopeful that it won't destroy our relationship.

Monte, I'm sad that even though you get touch from T you are still battling the numbness. I have to say that when my T just moves in closer to me it makes a huge difference in how safe I feel and how he connects with my limbic system. I am sorry that crying is such a scary monster for you. It's something that should come naturally and easily when necessary and obviously there is a lot of pain bottling up the tears. I hope you can one day find some release.

Hi SerenityLake... thanks for your words. It's helpful to know there are some who have weathered the pain and darkness and come out the other side. The issue is more likely deprivation and rejection than the actual act of hugging. It's also feeling desolate in the pain and I guess I'm just not in a secure enough place with my T to risk the pain yet. I did have horrendous pain when I first saw him that was caused by oldT and it was so huge it could not be hidden or contained and so he did get to see it but at that point it didn't matter who was with me because I could no longer hold it inside. And because I didn't know him well, it didn't matter to me if he rejected me because he meant nothing to me and I had nothing to lose. That has changed and he has power to hurt and destroy me too.

Hi Liese... I know you are a bit down yourself so thank you for all the posts and support and you are also typing via phone which is not easy so I appreciate hearing from you. I am pleased that you can now feel your Ts care for you and it does give me hope. As for letting oldT go and the empty space... I feel like I can't let him go because he is so interwoven with the me I had become over those years with him that to let him go destroys a big part of me too. I have to let ME go and then who is left? Who am I? I don't even know if there would be enough of a person left to continue with therapy...

SomeDays...thanks for the hugs and support. I guess this is a setback over the past two weeks because I cannot get past feeling rejected and the anger at the power he has to hurt me, like oldT did and it's pretty scary. But I do like what your T said about the setbacks are just opportunities for you both to do something different. Maybe I need to find a new way to approach the topic and we can talk about it again without both of us being SO reactive. This is the first topic I have felt that I cannot discuss with him and that is not good so maybe we need to keep trying.

Yaku I'm so sorry that you are in a bad place right now. Thanks for the hugs and for sharing your experiences with your T and how it makes you feel. And who knows, maybe if my T DID offer the hug or touch maybe I would not even feel that either. I don't feel the handshake so what makes me think I would feel a hug or a hand hold. Maybe I just do not know how to accept care even though I somehow feel it's important to me. Maybe I can ask him to sit closer for longer periods. I need to find the courage and strength to ask him what he IS prepared to offer for comfort. And no your posts are not triggering at all. They are helpful for me to see another perspective and I appreciate them.

Thank you all so much


TN
blackbirdblackbirdMember
quote:
And maybe this ... in the very long run... is healthier for us but it certainly does not feel good at all. Instead of banging our heads against a soft cushion we are banging our heads against steel walls. And of course we want SOME counter-transference, we want some sign that our Ts care about us or how can we spill our guts to them and trust them. IDK, Beebs, on some level I may at least be able to see the merit in those boundaries and the lack of warm fuzzies but I don't think it's a boundary breaker to allow touch, nor do I think it's a boundary breaker to show a bit of compassion either. This is all just so painful, so horribly painful.


Respectfully, Dear TN- both your T and mine allow touch...so far, in both our cases, there has not been an outright hug. so far. In both our cases, there has been, a touch on the arm, a rub on the arm, and handshakes. All of this has been very boundaried touch. Careful, appropriate touch, thank God. No way that either of us could think it meant anything else than it did. So they are able to offer the touch that they do- because it is clear that it doesn't mean anything else. But- if your old T offered touch...could it have meant something else to him than it did to you?? Even in a slight way? In my case? I think it could. In yours? I have no idea, but maybe you do, when you think about it. did he mean something different than you did? or than you needed? could your T (your light) have this aspect in mind, since he is no as innocent as you are in the ways of certain people, but knows how it can be? He is protecting you.

Thank you for your reassuring response on the thread I started about googling (once again Frowner ) Your lack of judgement of my behavior means a lot because I kind of suspect you don't do that.

Many hugs,

BB
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Oh Beebs, you sweetie. I am an expert Googler. You'd be amazed at my skills!

And i would never judge you. I only understand you.

As for the touch, you are right to point out that we DO get some measure of touch. We do. I know this and I am trying to be okay with it. It's such a minefield this topic. And yes, do I think the hug meant more than a therapeutic hug for oldT?...I do. I sometimes think he wanted to hug me as much as I wanted to hug him. Guess he got tired of them...

Thank you Beebs
TN
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
I finally have a quiet few moments to update you all on my Thursday session with T. It went well and although nothing earth shattering was discussed I left him with good feelings inside me. Like his warmth was melting the icy barricade I had put between us.

When I got there he was running a few minutes late and he came out to me while on his cell phone. He told me to go in and he walked away still talking. I waited only a moment and he was back apologizing foro the delay and we shook hands. I smiled at him and asked him if he needed some time to decompress LOL. He smiled at me and said no, he was fine. I'm not sure it was a client call.

What I remember that was important...

We talked about how I was feeling lately and how I was numb and detached from him and he asked me a bunch of questions and we finally got back to the touch issue. He apologized again and said that I really took him off-guard with the question and that because he relates to me on two levels, both patient and psych grad student, that he responded to the grad student. It was his mistake and his responsibility. I told him that mistake caused me a lot of pain and confusion and as a result I had to back away from him.

He basically stressed that all my reactions have been very understandable and quite normal for what was going on and for what happened to me with oldT. He said he'd be worried if I didn't act this way.

I asked him about the reaction formation he brought up in our last session and he could not remember the context of it but said that it was probably in relation to our relationship in that I wanted to move close and connect and instead insisted that he meant nothing to me and pushed him way to prove that.

When I brought up the touch/hug question he asked me if I noticed anything about the touch we have now and I said yeah we shake hands and you pat my shoulder. He said right but did I always pat your shoulder? I said no you started to do that nearer to Chrismas (the 3 month mark for us). He said yes, so you see things do change. Then he suggested that we just allow our relationship to evolve and develop in a natural way and see what happens then. I said okay. He again spoke of holding me with his words when I needed comfort and I expressed doubt again about that because I don't find his words very warm and fuzzy even now when I'm distressed or sad. He seemed to take that in.

We talked about my being numb and maybe he IS being empathic and caring but I cannot feel it. He said I'm so defensive that I don't allow any feelings at all and when that happens I don't get to enjoy the good feelings either. He believes that will change with time and trust.

He did ask me to look at our relationship and all the good vs the one mistake. I told him that intellectually I KNEW he was good and caring towards me and that he meets my needs in many areas and he is ALWAYS there for me... always. He answers every email, he returns every call, he gives me 2 sessions a week, he remembers to close the blinds, he lets me leave my blanket there, he arranged that meeting with oldT and arranged a place for me to wait in an other unused office if I got there while he was still in session. He has done so much for me and yet this one thing was able to put a dead stop to my therapy and our relationship. We both thought for awhile and then he asked me "when you were a child were your mistakes catastrophies?" and I said "oh yes, I was never recognized for the good stuff I did but if I did anything a little bit wrong then there was hell to pay". So he nodded and said I was recreating that experience for HIM and because of that he was allowed to experience the pain I experienced as a child and he understood how it felt for me. I thought that was very meaningful and it stayed with me.

We spoke about attachment and how he is now invested in me and because of that he does not want to do anything to hurt me because if he does then it hurts him and that this is what keeps me safe. He said he cannot insist that I am safe with him but merely point out certain things that would let me know that I was.

At the end of the session he shook my hand warmly and I could SEE his face again. I saw him looking at me and then he patted my arm for longer than usual. It was like he was making a point and wanted me to notice that touching me is not a horrible thing for him. And he wanted me to FEEL it. I did.

So I left feeling that we had somehow moved closer again. I was missing him last night and so I sent him an email and he responded with a beautiful email. I had thanked him for not giving up on me and he said " I would not even consider ever giving up on you" and he said he was proud of me for handling the process so well and he was glad that I was feeling better about our work. You see... he really is always there for me.

Thanks all for caring,
TN
yakusokuyakusokuMember
TN - I am so glad you were more able to feel the connection with your T, internalize his safety on more than an intellectual level this last session. A lot of the things he said reminded me so much of how my T reacted after the rupture we had on sitting close together. Owning the parts that were his, but reassuring his own investment in the therapeutic relationship, the entreaty to observe his behavior over time to take in the safety and care that is there. I'm so glad you got to see his face too. I don't get to do that very often with my T. Little Yaku always wants the room dark for mostly trauma-related reasons and it is so hard to look to him when I am in pain. Yet, more and more, he has been trying to not let me run away in that way and it feels good that he wants to be seen, wants his words to be fully taken in along with the feeling that is behind them. I'm glad he made the effort to help you really feel the touch he does offer and that his response to your email was so connecting.

quote:
Then he suggested that we just allow our relationship to evolve and develop in a natural way and see what happens then.


Just wanted to say that my T said nearly EXACTLY the same thing (except I think he used the word organic) around the time of our rupture over closeness. It really does astound me sometimes how much your T reminds me of my own. I have to imagine that despite having different personal inclinations on touch, the empathy is really there, deep inside of him, caring for that little one who is hurting so badly inside. I know you would probably say the same of my T from the outside, although I was often challenged in being able to feel it and still struggle with that sometimes. I hope you keep growing deeper in your experience of your T's care for you. I truly do.

(((hugs))) for a peaceful weekend.
L lieseMember
((((TN)))

Just wanted to say that I'm so glad you had a really nice, connected session with your T. It sounds like you were able to feel his care. Those sessions are really to be treasured.

I thought it was so interesting that he pointed out to you how you were able to make him feel like you did when you were growing up. That was a really powerful observation.

Enjoy the weekend.

xoxo

Love,

Liese
lamplighterlamplighterMember
TN I’ve been MIA for the whole of this thread and I’m sorry you got into a place where you couldn’t feel your T’s care. But I’m really glad now that you had a connected session and feel more positive towards your T again.

I did have lots of thoughts about the whole issue of T’s caring and not being able to feel it, this being something I have big problems with. Might come back later and ramble about it, for now I just want to agree with DF, good for you for hanging in there and keeping on going back.

((((( TN )))))

LL
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
quote:
I see so much progress with you and your therapy. As others have said before, it's sometimes easier to see in others than it is to see within yourself. You just almost seem like a different person than you were 2 years ago when i met you.

And that is in a good way. I see your sense of self unfolding, you are making great progress. It feels good and bad at the same time. Hopefully you will feel more good in your sessions ahead.

Your therapist, being psychoanalytically trained, addressed your emotional defenses. And this comes with emotional pain. But it is totally worth it in the long run. Maybe we can talk about this another time.

The one thing i am concerned with, and it seems like something for which you are not, or maybe i am wrong...but it is using therapeutic lingo in session. my therapist is/has been a therapist to numerous Ts, and he told me that you have to put theory and psychological lingo aside to do therapy....just a thought. I know it is encouraged on this site, but you know, not everyone sees that as a asset to therapy. You know?? Thinking it might be one thing distracting you from your feelings...as you say you have trouble feeling.. I dunno...



Hi xoxo...There is much in here I'd like to address. Thanks for your letting me know that you see a lot of progress in me over the past two years. Of course, I had a traumatic setback when oldT abandoned me and that set back any progress I was making before. But I am hanging on and doing my best to work with my T and settle the ruptures and keep moving ahead. Yes, it's hard to see any movement ourselves so it helps when others point things out.

Yes, my T is really good at addressing those emotional defenses I throw up. We both know that the only way past it all is through it and that involves a lot of pain and further grief. I guess that is why I am still poking him and texting him if he will be there for me and if he can comfort me and get me through the painful parts. Not only that but can HE handle it, the ups and downs and setbacks without wanting to run from me (like oldT did).

My T is very well aware that I use the therapeutic lingo as a defense mechanism and to distance myself from my feelings and he calls me on it all the time. He will say to me "stop being the intern or stop being the psych student and just tell me what you feel, put that in everyday language". He is a pretty smart cookie. I know I do this and I know that he wants me to tell him things in emotional words not lingo and I even tease him about it now. So no worries there. Not much gets past him.

And yeah, I am in really good hands now. Thanks for reminding me.

Hugs
TN
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Yaku, thanks for the support. It does seem that our T's are basically similar. It is still a struggle to take in that care and empathy and that is probably because it feels so foreign and uncomfortable and I don't know what to do with it. I did feel some warmth last session so maybe seeing that he is still there and has not changed one iota during this disruption has solidified the trust.

Liese, thanks for posting. I thought his remarks about now experiencing what I did as a child was powerful too. It has stayed with me and really made an impression... first that he would recognize and acknowledge this and also if he can understand this experience then it shows empathy and I saw that too. It all really helped.

DF... thanks for your words. I know you have been struggling so I appreciate your support. I hope you are doing okay.

LL!!...have been missing you and thinking of you. I hope you are okay. As always I would be interested in anything you have to say about all this. I know you struggle with some of the same things. The important thing is to keep going back and trying to work through it. This is where my digging in my heels stubborness comes in handy Brick wall

Thanks everyone. I'm looking forward to my session tomorrow and I'll keep you all posted.

TN
sdsdMember
Just caught up with the update. OMG. He is wonderful. I am so glad you had that lovely session where you reconnected. He really did well to slow things down to give you the space and to recreate the magic. He is so in tune, so with you. I just love hearing about it.

Last week when my T did something great that made me feel safe - i emailed her and said that I felt so good about her I would give her a hug to say thanks, but I said that she had to be happy with a virtual hug as hugging her would freak me out!!! She isn't getting one this week

Happy for you TN
L lieseMember
((((TN))))

I can only wonder how I've made my T feel. I'll have to ask him sometime. I think I've always pulled the rug out before he could, maybe like you do too.

It's only now that I've settled down. (Well, and only now that he deserved my trust!) He did tell me that he's become insecure and introspective and I know that is how he would describe me. That made me laugh. He said it was a good thing.

xoxo

Love,

Liese

P.S. Hope your session went well today!
True NorthTrue NorthCo-moderator
Thanks Liese, Kashley, SD, and hopeful. Hugs to all of you.

I had my session today and it was basically in two parts. In the beginning.... well in the beginning which I don't count as one of the parts (LOL) we talked about my hair! I had my hair trimmed and colored but it was also flat-ironed so it was super straight and T commented on it asking me what was different and then I told him and he asked if it was chemically done and then asked me if I have curly hair and I said no just wavy. I'm starting to get used to him "seeing" me but it still throws me at times. Last week he liked my sparkly snowflake pendant. He had on my favorite yellow checkered dress shirt but I refrained from telling him.

Okay to the session. First thing was that I needed to tell him that tomorrow on St. Nicholas Day, it would be four years that I met oldT. I talked about how that meeting went and how I felt and how by the third session or so that I was hopelessly attached to oldT. He asked me why I thought that happened and I told him because mainly he gave me hope and make me feel like he would take care of things for me as I was at the end of my rope with my son's issues and my mom seriously ill. That night I walked into the farmhouse with my son and dh it was snowing out and cold. I remember shaking the snow off my boots and being totally and immediately enchanted with the house that he uses for an office. The waiting room was large and warm and cozy with lots of books and toys for kids and a swirly fake fish tank. When he came out to meet us and we went into his office I was more enchanted. My T listened with understanding and allowed me to talk about it and the relationship which helps me to process it and also what has happened since then and why. After all this time and all our discussions I still have trouble understanding what happened and what went so badly wrong.

My T told me that my oldT pathologized a lot of my issues and they are not truly pathological issues, they have more to do with deprivation, abandonment and development gone awry. All things we can work on and heal. He also told me again that I am very kind and even in my anger I am kind because I always give the other person a way out. I don't back people into a corner and issue ultimatums. He saw this in how I reacted in anger to him over the touch conversation. When I referred to it as our touch conversation he corrected me and said "oh you mean the conversation that "I" f'ed up? He insisted that I see it as HIS f'up and not mine. He said it was important for me to know what what him and what was me in all of this. He said oldT had a way of making me feel like I was doing something wrong even when HE was the one who was doing it wrong.

The second half we talked about how we end sessions. I told him that I am still dissociating a lot when leaving him and I connected that to not being able to FEEL his handshakes when I leave. I also told him that I had a dream about him on Saturday night that it was Monday and we were in session and he got very angry at me and said he was cancelling my Thursday session and I would have to wait another week to see him again on Monday. In the dream I asked him why he was punishing me. That was all I remember except for being scared and glad when I woke up that it was a dream. He connected it back to last week and me being mad at him and worrying that I would be punished for it. I, of course, was not. He said much of what I fear and get anxious about relates back to abandonment issues. He asked me why I dissociate when I leave and I said due to fear, he asked me fear of what and I said the separation but he said it's not the separation which is temporary it's the fear that I won't ever see him again or that I will not be allowed to come back (that thanks to oldT). He realizes that I have to fight through that additional layer of mistrust and trauma to allow myself to feel secure with him and it will take time but it will happen. I told him how I need more ending ritual (although he HAS been remembering to give me my 5 minute warning. I explained what oldT did and he admitted that he is more abrupt with me in ending and we could work on that. He was very surprised that oldT's sessions with me were at least one hour and sometimes 70 minutes. He said he NEVER did sessions that long. He said that he expects his clients to work hard (I can vouch for that LOL) and he thinks 50 minutes is long enough and they can't handle more. But in my case I seem to be able to do this because of my experience and knowledge of the process and how engaged we always are and so we tend to not wrap up/transition with much time left. I told him I didn't feel the "transition" just the ejection part of the ending. So we are going to continue working on it and talking about it. Today's ending was fine because I was talking to him fully present and he shook my hand twice. Once when I got up and once at the door. I consider the second handshake my "hug" for the day. I also got a pat on the arm when I made him laugh about something that I cannot even remember now. But it was nice to hear him laugh. I thanked him for his wonderful email and I said to him ... sort of in astonished realization... you ARE there for me, you really are... and you won't give up on me.

It was a good session and I feel like we are tackling some hard stuff about how we work together so we can lay the foundation for the other work to come.

Can't wait for Thursday.

Thanks for reading
TN
yakusokuyakusokuMember
(((TN))) Not in a space to comment a lot right now, but SO glad to hear that you guys are on track and discussing some really important ways that he can be there for you, especially transition in a way that allows you to take the connection with you more easily. Please keep sharing. It blesses me to read about your sessions.
L lieseMember
(((((TN)))))

Wait, I thought the pink shirt was your favorite! Or is it that it just doesn't matter what he wears? Wink LOL! I love that you notice what he's wearing. I notice when my T is wearing a shirt that I don't think goes well with his coloring. And, he bought a pink shirt recently and I thought of you.

TN, your description of how and when you fell in love with OldT was very touching and evocative. I could picture the whole scence and fell in love along side of you. I liked the snowflakes and the swirly fake fish tank. You are very observant.

I don't think I've ever heard that story before. It sounds like you got a sense of safety just from the look of OldT's office. It (he) should have been safe because of the way it looked. Meanwhile, I know we are both fighting the cold feelings that seeing our T's in a commercial office building brings up for us. It's striking me now that we might associate the surroundings as being safe without checking to make sure the person is actually safe and vice versa, just assuming the person is not safe because the surroundings don't feel as safe or intimate. Makes me realize that probably most people make the same associations quickly, in snap judgments and don't stop and analyze at all why they feel what they feel. And all those great feelings for the surroundings generalized onto OldT without him even earning it, except that he is a great decorator and/or picked a great office.


It was interesting to me that your T said that OldT pathologized many of your issues. I felt that way about the woman that I saw before current T. Everything about me was pathological. The fact that my daughter said I was her best friend was pathological. Well, maybe it was indicative of something but it was the way she said it that made me feel so horribly sick. And it wasn't like I was happy that my daughter thought I was her best friend. I wasn't and I was there to get help.

My current T seems to think along the same lines as your current T, that our problems are manageable and *fixable* (my word). When I left her, I actually found this list of psychologists who practice "non-pathological" psychotherapy or something like that. The way you frame a problem really goes a long way towards feeling as though it can be overcome or not. Like, for instance, when I complained to my T recently that maybe I'll never be able to cry with him, he said to me, Liese, I can't say that. And you know what? I almost cried today. Actually it didn't matter whether I cried or not - I was feeling my emotions right then and there with him.

Anyway, TN, it sounds like you've had another terrific session with your T and you and he are back on the road to some great relationship building. Great work!

xoxoxox

Love,

Liese
sdsdMember
WOW TN, another lovely session. We have so many similarities with our issues and how our T's handle them.

I too have those same dreams - the way you and I were terminated has caused so much trauma to us. It underpins nearly everything I think and react to. For me everything comes back to being scared of being abandoned and or being punished for being angry.

I love it how your T said the touch thing was about his F up. Love that. My T also said this today when talking about her promised email this past weekend. This T too always tells me that the termination from youngT was NOT my fault (but a lot of it was.....) - it is good that T believes in me.
lamplighterlamplighterMember
Great to hear about your session TN and how positive it was.

Good for your T for taking responsibility for messing up that first touch conversation. And it’s great that you are able to keep talking about it and are on the way to resolving all the crap that came up from that previous session. It makes a lot of sense that OldT would be a big influence in how you are reacting now, it sounds like it’s going to take a while longer to lay OldT to rest. Fwiw I get very much how you would have been enchanted by OldT’s office – it’s only natural to assume that someone who creates such comfortable and safe surroundings would themselves be safe and comfortable. I have been put off by Ts whose office has been unpleasant or uncomfortable, I figure it reflects a lack of awareness of how a client would feel across the board.

Lol I love that you brought up the endings of sessions with him, that was my agenda for my session yesterday too (will update about it on the Endings thread.) It’s good that he’s accepted he can be a bit abrupt and it sounds like he is willing to change that. Oh but as for the 50 minute cut off – isn’t that strange? I talked to my T about that ridiculously short session time yesterday as well and he seemed to think it was unusual for therapy to run any longer, he was surprised when I said ALL my therapy barring one went for 60 minutes plus. It really is a hangover from the psychoanalytic ‘hour’ and has nothing to do with what a client can tolerate and everything to do with seeing clients back to back and giving the T 10 minutes in between to recoup. I am quite surprised that your T, who I think is a trauma T(?) would believe that 50 minutes is the optimal length of time for therapy.

Sorry I seem to be raining on your parade here and I don’t mean to, I’m really happy that you are feeling good about your T again and have been able to re-establish a connection. And that you are beginning to truly believe that he really is there for you, I reckon is a major step forward – regardless of the issues of touch and other negative things that come up (all of which I believe are ‘grist to the mill’ rather than make or break therapy issues.) Good for you for keeping on going and being able to be so open.

((((( TN )))))

LL
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