BB, oh no. don't feel that way.

you have been SO KIND TO ME, you can't possibly be a bad person. really.

i think we are both avoiding 'life' a bit lately, posting too much, escaping maybe...maybe we can help each other, be accoutable, somewhat.

i don't know, but leaning on others that understand.

i am a mess too, and i have my own addictions (escape) but maybe they ARE right?? i know, i dont' want to change either, i suppose. or i would, y'no?

i don't know what to tell you about meds, i am on a few, i feel afraid not to, and, at this point, i am not trying to get pregnant or anything that really interferes with meds, so, i will take a crutch if i can find one. so, whatever i know, but, if they could HELP, who cares!! y'no?

now i will tell you, i don't know if they help, and there are alot of holistic things to try too. but, throw me a crutch!! or two!!

i don't know what the key is to getting this all right. i think we have both found a spiritual connection that is helpful. i need to search out a few verses to ocd on.

please, friend, know that it will pass. i do have to admit, i have not always been so fragile. i've always had this rotten undercurrent, but fragile? no.

so, try to think back to when you didn't feel so bad. can you see anything that made things better? being outside? reading?

i wish so much i had the magic words for you. but, you are a kind person. please feel better.

((((BB))))) jill

(is it a full moon?)

[QUOTEso, try to think back to when you didn't feel so bad. can you see anything that made things better? being outside? reading?

] [/QUOTE]

Actually, this is quite helpful...and you are a kind person too...thank you jill. Maybe it's just as simple as going back to before therapy when all of this stuff wasn't uncovered, and I was "functioning" a little bit better with the mask on..and not so aware. Maybe I need to find a way to not be so aware? i don't know. it's confusing.

BB

I really like the idea of having someone to be acoountable to...only problem is, nobody, and I mean nobody has that much time! I'd have to be accountable for like, every hour. yick, I feel like such a slob.

BB

quote:

Is there any way a person like me can change their day-to-day habits and coping mechanisms without going on meds?

Yes, I believe you can. What I am wondering is how much time you've spent in T working on new coping mechanisms? What new tools do you have for coping? Have these been worked on beyond just talking about them intellectually? In my experience, much of the new and healthier coping skills need to be practiced within the safety and security of therapy and only when they feel more automatic in therapy do they start to translate to outside the therapy room.

quote:

So yesterday I was feeling kind of normal, good...you know? able to hug my husband and say I love yoiu which is very unusual for me, and do some stuff with my kids, and that.

Good for you! This is progress. This is change. Let yourself celebrate that.

quote:

I feel like I don't have anything to give, like all I can do is get through this day, just wait until it's over, do the *very* basics, like feed and clothe my kids.

There are going to be days like that and that is ok. I think it is important to let yourself off the hook and allow days where things are down to basic needs. That is a healthy way to take care of yourself. I know it doesn't necessarily feel like that sometimes, but it is.

I think coming here and reaching out for support is also a positive coping skill. You seem to be saying that you feel selfish for doing that??? (forgive me if I misunderstood), but really it is about taking care of yourself.

quote:

What is wrong with me?

Nothing! You are doing some really hard work and it is draining and it's exhausting and it is new. It is going to take time to rebuild your resources. I have found that the hardest time in therapy (still in it) is the middle zone where you drop your old coping mechanisms because you recognize that they no longer work to your greater good, but you also don't have new ones set in place (automatic like the old ones) to fall to. It's a tough spot to be in, but it will get better.

(((BB)))

Thank you, too, STRM...

can you explain how this plays out in therapy?

quote:

Yes, I believe you can. What I am wondering is how much time you've spent in T working on new coping mechanisms? What new tools do you have for coping? Have these been worked on beyond just talking about them intellectually?

Because I'm not sure if my T and I have ever discussed new coping mechanisms...maybe we have, but a lot of my therapy is just self-directed and I am supposed to just talk about whatever it is I need to talk about...and I'm not so sure what that is most of the time, or if what I've chosen to talk about is all that helpful in the long run. At present, it seems like T is just trying to work on me accepting that he does care about me. My thinking is very disorganized, so I don't really know how to be orgaized about my therapy...I was kind of hoping T would be able to help me with that, because it's an area I feel really helpless in. But it is always "What do you want to talk about today." I still get pretty frozen when that question is asked, but making some progress in the area of being more open, even pushing occasionally for stuff that pops up that I think I might want to say. But, the whole thing is pretty hard to pin down. Yeah, maybe I do need some more specific help and guidance in T. But T says " it will be hard for you to accept from me ways to make your daily day work better, until you can accept and feel that I care about you." ???

Thanks for the help, jill, and STRM. I'm in a bit of a pickle over this.

BB

What would be new and healthy coping mechanism? I'm trying to think, for myself...what can I do differently that is healthier that I won't just fail at? I can't deal with one more failure. I've failed at every single thing I've tried to undertake...except for stuff that I'm essentially doing to please others or whatever. I don't really want to do anything good for me, I guess, because I have no motivation to do anything good for myself...and I don't know what the heck to do about it. If I could do this stuff like excercise or change my diet to please my T, well, that would be something to work for...but gosh, he isn't checking in on me to see how I do with stuff he's reccommended..it's all up to me, what I talk about, so what- am I going to open sessions with the list of things he's recommened that I failed at accomplishing? And say, "Dear T, please hold me accountable?" Is that what I have to ask for...oooh, asking feels so icky. Maybe, medication really is the answer for me. Maybe *it* would get my rear in gear, since nobody else will. Ugh.I feel yucky. Sorry for spewing. I just have no idea how to "become" self- motivated!

Dear BeeBee,

I'm sorry you are hurting SO so much right now, the pain is just so raw...and I'm also sorry that I don't have a good answer for you...but I do know the weary agony of returning to the same pattern again and again and again...when you describe some days as just getting by, letting the kiddos watch movies and you checking out...oh I've been there, sweetie, more times than I'd ever admit if we were face-to-face. Struggling with the same weaknesses over and over and over...it is exhausting...and now apparently failing with a second couples T, I'm just despairing that I can ever get "better"...I don't know what else to do...sometimes there is a Bible verse that comes to mind in those moments...I am terrible when it comes to memorizing them, but I think this one had to do with Paul...who spoke of a "thorn" in his side that never went away, even though he asked God repeatedly to take it from him...didn't God say to him, "My grace is enough for you" or something like that? Anyway I've always wondered what that means exactly...to tell the truth when it comes to mind I feel angry about it sometimes, because I want to say, no it's NOT enough, I just want this thorn out, for crying out loud. Oh, I'm sorry, Beebs...this isn't really helpful, is it...I just wanted you to know I hear you and I care.

Hugs,
SG

Dear Beebs,

I hear you. I feel like this a lot of the time too.

You know, you have only just got to the place where you can trust your T a bit and feel his care a bit and feel what you feel and say what you need to say a bit.

So why isn't your life all fixed already?!?!?!
Sorry, just kidding, obviously.... I'm really saying you are a new arrival in this place, where you can actually bring these things to the table and work openly with the deep underlying feelings that will shift your experience and behaviour. I'm hoping to get there too, but it's a wonderful thing that you are now on the way. You are NOT where you were a few months ago. Things will shift.

In the meantime, *perhaps* there are practical things that can help. I've used Flylady before to help me manage house stuff (I know I mentioned this before, but if you don't know her, see www.flylady.net). I've also just started using an online to-do list, which is helping me a huge amount - http://teuxdeux.com.

But I've had a few years' practice learning to use to-do lists in a constructive way - that is, not loading them up with everything under the sun and then falling off the wagon and hating myself. If you are in a place where you're ready for it, these kinds of tools could help. Could be worth a try.

Love,
Jones

Thank you so much you guys. Just soaking up the care in your messages in itself is putting me in a better frame of mind. (Why does it hurt like hell when people care about me?)

SG...yes, everything you said *is* helpful and resonated. Actually, my T and I had the same conversation about the thorn in the flesh... only, I'm jealous of St. Paul since he only apparently had one. I have an entire thorn bush, and gosh, they just won't leave me alone! I think the phrase "my grace is enough" is probably a bid from God for us to be self-accepting of our foibles, and not to feel the dreaded guilt feelings. Now, just, how to embrace that in the heart, and not just in the intellect? I'm sorry about your couples T stuff...it *does not mean* you are a failure. You have good judgement and a good grasp on what it is that you need from a couples T. I hope you won't feel guilty and that the confusion will clear up. (((((SG)))))

DF- thank you for your wonderful long reply...how kind of you, and how helpful everything you have suggested is... every word is just being taken in by me in this moment. I do have a question about your question-

quote:

It's the 'to please my T' that caught me in this. When I read what you said to me it sounds like you are in pain and don't want to suffer. Even though you are saying it would be difficult to do for yourself, reading between the lines I get a sense that a part of you really does any to do something for you. Doing something purely to satisfy others is difficult. I'm not sure if I'm way off base, but I see you saying that you want to please your T but ALSO that you want some help being held accountable for your own healing. I hope you can see this and realize that it looks like, undercover, you do want to help yourself for you on some level. Your words seem to imply what it is cognitively maybe you don't want to accept (I do this too, so that is why I think I honed in on it... I say i want to please others and if I really look at my words objectively... I'm just trying to convince myself to help myself but projecting it on to something else so it's less scary).

Sorry to quote your whole paragraph, but I just think the whole thing of this is probably really important...the only problem is that in reading it my brain is turning into molasses! Not because of the way you put it, but this happens with cognitive concepts often. I was wondering, if it's not too much trouble, if maybe, you could say it again another way...and do not worry about "tiptoeing" if you know what I mean...
The other thing is that when I say I want to please my T, part of my current depression happened after about 6 or so minths in T, when I was making great changes and doing things I'd never been able to do before. But I crashed when I realized interiorly that it was all for him...like, to look "good" to him...and really had nothing to do with me growing or anything, but was just the same thing I have always done- try to "look good" to others so they won't reject me. I guess that's when I started to think, "well, there is really no way out of this." And I've kinda slumped ever since. I started begging my T to help me more, to kind of "lift me up" for lack of better way to say it...but he always insisted that it would make me too attached to him (as if I could be more?) for him to step in and kind of give me a push. He said he should not feed me fish but give me a fishing rod and teach me how to use it. All of which I can see very much the value of. But, my problem seems to be that I just fish really listlessy, and don't catch that much, since, nobody cares, nobody is going to praise me, nobody will "see" what I do, except for me. And it feels like I don't really care what I think about me, so if I look in the mirror and say "golly you look great today, kid" it is meaningless to my heart. Does this make any sense?
DF, your suggestions are really wonderful...I want to lift myself up and try some of them...my fear is that I won't, I will foget I will slump, I won't bother, I'm just so stuck in my day-to-day dysfunctional way of being that even something as simple as going out to a bookstore and looking for a book seems like it is out of my reach. Weridly, I can do other things that are "more challenging" than that...considerable. But it's only because if I don't, the people I'm involved with who rely on me will really feel disappointed. If it weren't for their *potential* anger and rejection of me as a person, I would never be able to do this creative stuff I do. It is something where they are really reliant on me, and without me it will fail. So I keep on doing that.
Yeah, I feel bad posting on here, because it makes my spouse really really angry with me, and because I tend to get "sucked in" to the neglect of other important duties. If I could find some balance, it would be ok to post and read on here. It just feels like a really "me first" thing to do when my kidlets need me to be more functional and around for them instead of zoned into the computer all the time. Does that make any sense? It's balance, I guess. I'm not good at balance. Maybe I really will go out and buy the DBT skills workbook. Problem is it will sit untouched on my shelf, unless somebody sits there and does it with me. groans. This is the stuckness of it. ick.
DF, thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me in such a kind and gentle and helpful manner...you rock. Your post really means a lot to me. I especially find useful the suggestions, try to choose just two, even small tasks like take a shower and brush your teeth, and if you get those done then pat yourself on the back and feel good. That helps.

Jones- I'm sorry that you feel like this a lot. I think it goes back to just never getting adequately parented or taught that what we do is valuable and contributes...something like that. Thanks for the encouragement, saying that I'm not where I was a few months ago. It doesn't really feel like anything has shifted, but I'm sureit has at least internally, or I probably wouldn't even be frustrated with lack of progress. Thanks so much for the links...back when I used to feel "better" that is, back when all this stuff I was feeling inside was not in my awareness I would still make attempts at normal life- I used to do flylady...somewhat- and it was really helpful to me, too. But then I started to kind of obsess about it, and it ended up screwing with me in some kind of weird way. Then I thought, oh, gosh, even flylady can't help me get my act together, I'm really a hopeless case, and down I went. I realize cognitively that this kind of stuff puts me into a really helpless kind of like victim stance...feeling like a little kid, really, just powerless, waiting for someone to come along and "parent" me through my days... But all the understanding in the world of my dysfunctional internal setup, just makes me feel worse and even more helpless! ick!
Oh, I'm sorry, I just keep going on and on about how hopeless it is and that "I can't" and that's not very helpful is it? Thank you Jones...

Thank you so much every body..

Love,

BB

bb, something is in the air, girl. pretty rocky over here, too. called t for extra session. i feel better, really spelling out the bpd and all it's bloody parts, just grossing myself out with it out loud for t. i left, saying "FIX IT!' to poor unsuspecting t. t said, 'i will work WITH you to....blah blah blah'

so, my point being, BB, you bird of my feather. we want someone else to fix it? is that you too? i may be wrong, and forgive me if i am, but, you and i both know the crappy answer, as my t said before i closed my ears to another word of it.

i dunno, i guess, i am not always this down, and i know you aren't either. it will pass, i'll wait it out with you. and, when we are sunnier, we will do a high five. but, in the meantime, i set very low goals for myself. feed family, make bed, bath, carpool. and that is about it lately. t said something about 'you don't take to your bed, do you'...uh, well, i just let that one slide...but, set low goals, reward yourself for doing them. and this pleasing your t? yes, t1 was the lucky one that got all that. now, although i do still try to please, sometimes i flop down and tell them (a constant chant) something negative about how crappy things are 'now that i am in all this therapy', or how much i hate it. in more words than that, but not many more. told t they have it worse than dentists, t replied that at least dentists could give out novacain. can only imagine what t would give me. good thing my check clears.

so, crap on pleasing your t, y'no. please YOU, my t is just going to have to endure me for awhile, coz we are right on the edge of hopelessness and right now, i feel like, it is THEIR problem. they have to convince ME they can do something with nothing. (yes, a part is teen aged bratty mixed with hopelessness) but, 'nut up or shut up' (sorry!) was sure my attitude today.

(got that treasure from my kids football coach!!)

i think my biting ridicule is a sign i am moving toward a better stand. get pissed, bb, and go take it out on something (safe)!!

gee, i hope that is not terrible advise!! xxoo jill

sorry, God. i'll clean it up next post, promise. jill

It's funny you say thisjill, because in session, my T actually said that he thinks I think "too highly" of others, and that I need to get angry when I am treated badly, and to feel like it's ok to get angry. This is weird, coming from my therapist who is sort of an anti-anger guru. But I'm kinda frustrated because even though I know that I must have a lot of supressed/repressed anger...I just can't get angry. (except at my husband or kids-people who are as equally defenseless/powerless feeling as myself, for some reason. Even though I have expereinced annoyance with my T for not "getting me" and stuff like that, it's like I have a high wall around anger and cannot allow myself to go there, because if I do it will be proof positive of my ultimate, unchangeable badness. I think...idk...T has also said that I am just not an angry person...so that's pretty confusing. I think anger presupposes some sense of self-worth...I am angry because I wa treated badly, or I didn't get what I need...means, well, I think I deserved to get that. I think it's a very good sign that you are pissed at your T and at your parents and others. That's a lot better than being so weak and floppy that anybody can sit on you and you will just smile at them peaceably...I guess. idk. I just feel like what's the use of getting angry, as, I'm no better and I do all the same shit that people do to me, and worse, so I may as well just take it, and at least not return it- anger is really, really confusing to me. I don't know why because my parents were not particularly angry people, in fact, any anger felt like "attention." I wonder where this problem with anger, not being able to feel it, hold onto it, or use it constructively...and being terrified of the anger of others...and feeling very deeply "not ok" getting angry- in fact, any time I feel anger, as previously stated at my kids or spouse, I feel this deep urge to hide away for the rest of the day, "take to my bed" as you say, or punish myself somehow. It feels SO wrong to be angry at them. Where does that come from? Maybe anger is my way out of this? But my T says "feel only what you feel..." SO...how do I "feel" anger...when I kinda, don't? It's confusing stuff. I wish I could pay attention better in T. It feels so desperate when I can't remember stuff or think clearly there.

Thanks jilly...

Beebs

So I finally caved and sent my T *another* email. His daily dose of my ick. I know he doesn't have time to reply to me, and I do it anyway. ick,ick,ick. But something I have to say, that I feel kinda good about, is that I am starting to be a lot more open and honest with T. Telling alot of the stuff that makes me feel really ashamed. Or just saying it like it is. Unheard of! Telling the truth usually makes me so nervous I can barely think straight and not "leave the room" as people say. What do I have to lose? I think I finally figured out, well, I hit rock bottom and now I just have nothing, literally nothing to lose by opening up to him. So I may as well. And I'm starting to. So at least T is on the right track, and hopefull it will stay that way, and start to have an effect on my life too. Feeling a teensy bit more positive in this moment, thank you God...let it spread. btw, DF, if you are reading...I think I have finally figured out your question, and I think I understand what you are saying, now...at least in this moment...and thank you...you are right, there must be some undercurrents of wanting to care for myself there. I think I really need to learn how, maybe more than anything, instead of just flopping.

BB

Oh, you guys, I'm really grateful to you for hearing me so well. I'm starting to see a apttern in that, I have a strong desire to pull away and isolate when I am hurting really badly. (Which is pretty much every day, if truth be told) So I send an email to my T. Or I post here. Then I hear back from someone, just comforting caring words, or in my T's case, some good advice or thoughts that provoke insight on the matter at hand. I feel better. Next day, I end up in the same spot again. I'm sorely tempted to suck it up, because I "reached out" too much, and I am just too much, too needy, too hurting, too desperate, and I need to "learn to cope on my own." This doesn't work. I end up feeling worse and worse and more and more empty and deprived. Things get very bad. Then I make another stab at reaching out. And then I feel better...and so the cycle goes. But I'm really thinking that there must be something to finding ways to care for myself, when no one else is around or able. Maybe that's something I should bring up in T...what to do when I'm feeling desperate and empty and no one is around? How to avoid getting sucked into the darkness in those moments?

DF, Monte, thank you for your kindness to me. Incidentally, I'll bet you'd be a great mum, DF. This "not flopping thing," is really getting me thinking. My boy has some kind of muscle myopathy, that makes him really tired alot, have a hard time climbing the stairs and so on. He's fine, but just, like me, kinda floppy. He does better when I push him. But it's sooooo tempting to say "oh, you're tired, aw, just let me carry you sweetie..." y'know? hmmmm, this has me really thinking. Sometimes, he really just needs to be carried. I can see it in his eyes. Other times he can do it...he just doesn't *want* to. Maybe I need to learn the difference in myself. Thank you for helping carry me with your words, though, when I think I really needed it, you guys.

quote:

Often I am overwhelmed by the discouragement of failing again and just dig a deeper pit for myself than the one before. But then somewhere along the way, I try again. Truth is, I never stop failing...but never stop trying either (often after lengthy pauses) and I'm guessing maybe you are the same.

Yes, this is me, actually most of the time over the past few years...years ago I used to be better at picking myself up and forcing myself to carry on, though I can't really remember a time when I wasn't "depressed" or whatever it is that I am. I seem to have lost that skill to force myself to carry on sometime after I had my second child. But, at least I'm getting sick of just sitting here limply. That's something, right?

quote:

We probably fight bigger battles than most people to get through the day (week, year...life...) and deserve bucket loads of praise.

These words are so sweet, and basically the same thing my SD has said to me time and again. Goes a long way towards not beating oneself up for so much failure. Thanks for this, Monts.

DF, don't you dare apologize for saying so many things that I need so badly to hear right now! I really needed it. One thing, (and I'm sorry I'm always questioning your posts, but I*really* want to know, to learn.. you say that when you do something entirely for yourself, it resonates on deep soul level, that you never get from someone else. I think I *might* know what you are talking about here, but I am not sure how it plays out. In all sincerity, and it's probably cause I'm pretty screwed up, I really can't imagine doing something without hoping for praise or someone to "see" it. This is a huge part of my problem, as you can imagine. I literally cannot do one thing without thinking "so and so will be pleased..." or "maybe this person will like me for this..." And I find this a tremendously discouraging place to be, it just feels really hopeless, because I have very little interest in anything, for it's own sake or just mine- and haven't for years. Is there a way out? One of my teachers used to try to combat my severe performance anxiety by telling me , that I am meant to be a "servant to the music." This stayed with me forever, and I've been thinking about it alot ever since. I never could get to that point. I think it's basically a problem with "aloneness." I'm not sure what the answer is. For me, with my beliefs, the answer is obvious, just give it God, He will see...but it's not so simple, since I feel deeply that God has somehow shut the door on me and left me to deal with this alone. Like my T does, I guess. Well, please don't feel you have to respond...you've given me alot of your time, all of you, and I just feel like I should stop asking, now. Hmm, than why am I still writing? urgh.



BB

Wow!!! that is *really* wise! eeeeewwwww...you are right stuff like that makes me feel reeeeaaallly uncomfortable too. Hmmm. Can I share something? I'm in spiritual direction with an awesome wise priest. ewwwww- he always makes me repeat good things I've done in regular life to him (and I know he's not "impressed" because he's just SO neutral, and the things I do are teensy compared to the suffereing he's dealt with in refugee camps and third world countries and stuff like that- so you get the picture)
Then he makes me think about how saying this good stuff about me to him *makes me feel.* it is seriously eeeewww, verrry uncomfortable feelings. So I tell him that. He lead me to see, this is a spirit of negativity, as you would maybe put it, and in my case, we would put a name on *it* and call it Satan. So, I get to see, that when I am feeling that way, it's not really my fault, but that I constantly feel like crap. For some reason, this makes me feel better, like an ok person who is dealing with a lot. I just remembered all of this. You are basically saying the same thing he is. DF, thank you. You know, it's so funny that you have these same issues, because to me it's as clear as day that you are a kind, generous and loving soul. (Sorry, to make you feel uncomfortable- but it's true!) Thank you for the goodness extended to me...from you.

Love,

BB

eep...dealing with a lot of fear about what I just posted, and the urge to delete...I hope it's ok, and that it's not taken the wrong way, I just think we are kinda of the same page...let me know if it's just, weird.

BB

phew...that's a relief...thank you DF!

quote:

The separation makes the problem so much easier to deal with some how... like that I am actually inherently good, where the other thinking is that you are inherently bad... and it's very difficult to want to help yourself if you feel like you're a bad person.

Yes, yes, yes...it's that separation, isn't it? whew...it's a battle- but one worth fighting, isn't it?

You *are* sweet, DF...don't ever forget it! Or if you forget, at least remember a time when you did know it! Thank you from my heart for helping me through this really bad spell. I'm feeling alot better. I hope you took something from it too.

Love,

BB