I'm sorry it's still so hard, but it is completely understandable. You aren't a broken record at all.

If you do find another T, BB, a good one...then he/she should be able to help you find your way in therapy. You don't have to have all of the answers, nor can you be expected to have them. I'd be running around like a chicken with it's head cut off if my T didn't give me some direction. And it doesn't even have to be specific, even something like saying I'm working hard (even when it feels like I'm fumbling around in the dark) helps me know that maybe I'm not doing everything 'wrong'. I came into therapy completely helpless as to what the heck I was doing, but my T helps me feel not so helpless. You shouldn't have to do all the work, BB. Don't keep yourself from finding a T because you think you need to know more to be able to do it 'right'. Btw, I used to think that I wasn't doing therapy right, with my first T mainly. I think I've finally gotten over that bit and realized that there truly isn't a right and wrong in how we do therapy.

That is very odd that your T sent the bill to your H. Sounds like a cowardly, underhanded move to me. Makes me all the more glad that you've decided to break from him because he's so inconsistent and plain confusing sometimes that it's just not healthy.

Anyway Beebs...keep posting as much as you need to. Don't back off because you're afraid of saying too much bad stuff and being a broken record. It's okay to be in pain, and it's perfectly okay to talk about it. ((((((((hugs))))))))

Thanks you Kashley. Thanks for understanding. It would have helped a lot if T had ever said that I worked hard, but I guess he couldn't say that to me, since I didn't and he wasn't proud of me.

I am sorry for being so whiny. I don't know where to put these feelings, or who it would be ok to share them with,so I put them here.

You did work hard BB. Too hard!! I hope I didn't make you feel worse. And if it helps to look in terms of right and wrong, you did so much right. You showed up, you vocalized your hurts and you vocalized your needs. It's not your fault. ((((hugs)))). Gotta run... Hang in there Beebs.

Oh BB
You are not a broken record and you are not whiny. You are hurting very deeply. Of course you have all of these feelings that seem to just take hold and not let go. I know you wish they would leave you alone and I'm so sorry it hurts so much. I am *really* glad you posted because you should not be alone with your pain...even if you have to post about it everyday, BB. Losing a T hurts badly.

I am thinking of you and wishing you moments of peace today. ((((you))))
seablue

quote:

Like the whole email thing- "sorry about that but I won't have time to respond to this email for three more weeks" (I was very open and poured my heart about all my doubts and fears of him, and then I asked if there is any way to salvage two years of therapy-) even though I requested to pay for a response, I'm not holding my breath on getting one after this last episode of him sending the last bill and even an email to my H only- so that he won't have to deal with me or even recognize my existence on the planet anymore. It's almost like he thinks I was after him or something. It's like he thinks I just wanted him instead of my H, and that I didn't want to heal. He must be so relieved to be rid of this client that was so negative all the time with him. He liked me when I was grateful to him and sweet, but he couldn't handle it when I was a wreck and hated him. He told me my anger was very unpleasant. He told me that there were times he thought I was mentally retarded. He told me he couldn't understand why I wouldn't share my inner world with him.

Beebs, I am so sorry you are going through this hell. I know how it feels. I really do. A lot of what you wrote resonates in some way with me but what I quoted above really made me angry with your T. He was incompetent to help you and he is trying to put that fault on you! He is supposed to be directing the therapy NOT you. You are the patient and you are not supposed to have all the answers. You are not supposed to do this alone. Just yesterday my T asked me where I went (I had dissociated away from him a bit during a discussion about childhood) and I said I had to get myself under control so I could talk to him... basically... separating myself from the pain. He said, "and why are you doing that by yourself? That is what I am here for, to help you with that" It felt really good to hear that. He also commented that he understood that I was so used to doing it all alone, in childhood and also in my previous therapy.

It is totally reprehensible that it would take a T THREE WEEKS to respond to an email from a patient who was in such a dire place. I know this may be difficult to hear but he abandoned you right there, Beebs. He is worthless as a T and even unethical. You were asking him if your therapy could be salvaged and he ignored that?

Then he shows his cowardice by sending the bill and an email to your dh? YOU were his first client, not your dh and this was in regard to YOUR treatment. That is unethical as well as being a coward.

Why would a competent T think you wanted him instead of your dh? Because you developed a childlike attachment to him? Because you needed to go back and redo the developmental stages you were denied as a child? Let me ask you Beebs? Did you dress like a hooker during your Skype sessions? Did you make suggestive and seductive comments to him? If you did then he could think you wanted him... but so what? Then it should have been addressed not ignored or him pushing you to your dh as your attachment figure. To me it seems like your T had an avoidant attachment status himself and may have a troubled background that he never addressed fully so to not allow it to contaminate the therapy space.

He like you when you were grateful and sweet? Well too bad. If he only likes dealing with grateful sweet people then he should be in another profession. Therapy gets rough and bumpy at times and he needs to accept that or go be an accountant or something. What he was doing with you was reenacting your childhood. And he made his approval and acceptance of you conditional. If you are nice you get the pat on the head. I wish I could kick him in the shins for you!

He told you he thought you were mentally retarded and didn't know why you wouldn't share your inner world with him??? I am incredulous at this. First of all, telling you that was ABUSIVE, not to mention rude and unprofessional! And maybe you wouldn't share your inner world because he had NO clue what to do with your inner thoughts and feelings. And maybe because he never worked to create a safe, caring, trusting space for you to feel okay to share these things with him. What was lacking Beebs was in HIM not you. I am SO angry with him.

And if all that is true, then you are lucky to be away from him because he would only cause you further harm and pain. It was just like when my oldT made me feel "overwhelming" and "too much" and told me I needed a "special trauma T". That was all bullshit because he was incompetent. He made it my fault. I tell my current T stuff and he looks at me and tells me you are NOT overwhelming or too much. You are a wonderful, insightful, intelligent patient who works hard. And Beebs, you are the same. You work hard but you had an incompetent T and you felt that you had to take on and run the therapy for him. He was not a good T. I hope he just disappears and you will grieve the relationship and then be able to move on with a new T. When you do therapy with a real, professional, competent T you will see just what a huge difference in makes. A lot of the angst and pain you suffered was caused by your T's incompetence.

The last thing I want to add here is that I would never have made the recent improvements that I have made unless I had a good T to help me recover. I could NEVER have done this alone, even though I had caring friends, a great sister and this board. I needed a good, caring, competent T to listen to me and to guide me and explain things to me and pick up on stuff I never saw nor understood about my previous T relationship. I needed a T who would allow me to attach and be comfortable in that attachment we have TO EACH OTHER. As he explained to me yesterday, you cannot form an attachment with someone who will not allow it to happen. So please Beebs.... go out there and meet with that T that you spoke to (or emailed?) who was good in the attachment area. You can do this. I know you can. Please believe in yourself too. Go meet with him and each time you do... you will get stronger and stronger and the pain will get less and less.

I'm thinking of you and I hope that you will seriously consider what I've said. I say it out of love and concern for you.

Hugs
TN

((((Beebs))))

What TN said x10.

((((BB)))))

If you didn't hurt, you wouldn't be human. It hurts because it feels like you failed somehow. It hurts because you so much want to get better and this T let you down. Beebs, it hurts because it feels like he rejected you.

You could, BB, demand to speak with him and ask him, why did you reject me? What is so disgusting and vile about me that you can't work with me, that you avoid me? But then again, he could have a major personality disorder and just screw you up even more. And, I'd hate for you to get hurt even more BB. Maybe you could have your H call him and say, WTF? It sounds like he's really playing mind games and maybe someone needs to stand up to that ass.

BB, I hate the thought of you languishing at home in all this self-blame. Your SD is leaving. Can you find someone just to have one consult with who can help you sort through this mess? Not necessarily to do therapy, not necessarily to make that commitment but you shouldn't be processing this by yourself, Beebs.

BB, I so relate to the self-blame. When T and I were processing the recent vacation mess, he asked me what happened, how did I start to spin out? I told him that when I got home, I was frustrated that he wouldn't let me email and my first thought was, what did I do wrong? Maybe I didn't ask the right way? (the self-blame.) Then the next phase I went into was, what was he trying to teach me? To yell louder? To ask in a different way? To jump higher???? (denial) And then finally I got to ... no, this was his boundary. And he said, yes, that was his boundary. He doesn't have any contact with any of his clients when he is on vacation. And, so all that self-blame was misplaced. There really wasn't anything else I could have done to get that email address and I was beating myself up mercilessly.

I'll give you another example. When I went on vacation recently, T and I had two phone sessions. It was right after he told me he doesn't love me. I was in a bad place. I told him that I kept asking myself, how does he want me to react to this? Maybe I should get a book to read about how I'm supposed to react to this phase of therapy? Maybe I should ask the people on the forum? And then, finally I just decided that I would just be me. I wouldn't try to be perfect. And T was going to have to accept me as I am or he can't be my T anymore. If I'm not good enough or smart enough or doing therapy the right way. And T said, that's exactly it. Just be you.

Awww, it's such a relief to just be me BB. And if my T can't accept who and what and where I am right now, then he can't be my T. End of story. There wasn't anything else you could have done to please your T. It was his job to get you where you needed to go.

Please think twice about finding someone to talk to.

(((BIG HUGS))))

Liese

Beebs... so sorry if I came on too strong in the above post but I stand by what I wrote....

I realized though that I never answered your question about why you still hurt. You hurt because you are a kind, gentle person. You hurt because what your T did was to abandon and betray you. That hurts because you invested so much into the therapy and the relationship and it hurt to lose something so important to you.

What you are now experiencing is grief and loss. Very real grief and loss and it will take a lot of time to heal this. And everyone heals on their own time table. And this is how grief works... you may be okay at times and then like a tidal wave it washes over you and you think you are going to drown in the pain. It comes and goes. It gets triggered by all kinds of events... even seemingly innocent things will trigger the grief. You lost your T... who was a very important person to you. I'm sorry you have this loss to deal with. You need to grieve. You need time. And you need to talk about it... over and over again... to process it. You are not a broken record. You are doing what is important in allowing you to heal from this.

Please talk about it as much as you want. Don't isolate. That won't help you.

Hugs
TN

Thank you TN. thank you Kashley. thank you Seasblue. Thank you LG.
TN, It's just my T has destroyed my trust in other therapists by telling me that I will not be able to find care like his anywhere out there, that there was something very special about what he was offering to me- and primarily by telling me that other T's who let their clients stay in therapy for years are just doing it just to get more of their clients money, and that it is unethical of them to allow it. He told me that the reason he made it his goal for me to end therapy, is because he cares about me and doesn't want to see me spend "piles of money, only to deepen the attachment." I believed him. And I took that thinking in as my own. I don't know how to change that thinking it's like giving up a belief system that my T gave me or something. Then he would say the opposite, that I needed to learn to depend in order to heal, so I was very confused all the time. As you know.

What I cannot understand is why he reiterates that I am welcome to come back anytime. ??? that is almost the worst of it, because I don't beleive him, I think he is just saying that but will give me nothing if I actually follow through. Maybe that is what I deserved...nothing.

oops I crossposted I will go back and read now, sorry.

Thank you Liese, too. I crossposted with you, before so I didn't see what you wrote. Thank you for sharing your expereinces with me. TN you didn't come on too strong. I just keep thinking that if my T read what you wrote he would be mad, and he would point the finger at me, like he would say...that he didn't respond for three weeks, (actually I seriously doubt he will reply at all) but that he did send me a shorter reply that was very nice to expalin that, and responded to a few of the surface issues in the letter I wrote. and stuff like that.

Beebs,

He IS giving you very contradictory messages and personally, I would find it very confusing. Can you ask him to clarify everything he told you? Would that help in some way?

I have a lot of work to do on myself Beebs, to get where I want to be in life. It's going to take me a long time and the help of a supportive T. My T is okay with that and I don't really feel like he is looking at it like I'm his paycheck. He sees my determination and will and just lets me know that he is in it with me for the long haul to help me get what I need and want from life. So, personally I disagree with your T.

The changes that I have to make take time. It's not as though I don't want to change. Sometimes I just don't know how to. Maybe it would be different if I didn't really want to change.

But I also hear a determination from you and know that you would not just languish in therapy, using him to meet needs that you can't get met outside of therapy. You just didn't know how to get past this stage on your own, nor should you know. He's supposed to be the expert. That's what he's getting the big bucks for, IMHO.

Liese

quote:

TN, It's just my T has destroyed my trust in other therapists by telling me that I will not be able to find care like his anywhere out there, that there was something very special about what he was offering to me- and primarily by telling me that other T's who let their clients stay in therapy for years are just doing it just to get more of their clients money, and that it is unethical of them to allow it. He told me that the reason he made it his goal for me to end therapy, is because he cares about me and doesn't want to see me spend "piles of money, only to deepen the attachment."

Beebs... your T is right in a way... you hopefully WON'T find anyone like him out there who will be SO incompetent and misguided and cruel. How convenient and self-serving to tell you that he was IT.. .the best T ever! That only HE could offer you this special treatment. Would you really want another T who behaves like this T?

And we are back to HIS fear of attachment again. Some therapy, especially therapy with clients who have attachment injury and complex-PTSD does take years and years. Because it is so complex and complicated and impacts so many areas of their life. There is a lot to untangle. And so what would happen should the attachment deepen? Is that a problem for him or you? This is not clear to me.

When the attachment deepens and is allowed to bloom and grow it heals the patient. It is in all the literature. It works. It allows you to go back and re do the developmental stages that you did not have as a child. Eventually, you internalize the attachment figure and are able to go out and live life fully and be comforted by this internalized figure. Yes, eventually leaving them will be hard, but it can be done. We have seen it happen.

Was it any better for your T to take your money and provide NO containment, guidance, information, healing, care or understanding?

And I need to ask you Beebs.... do you REALLY believe him when he says that you can only get this kind of "care" from him? Only you can really decide this.

I'm sorry for being so "tough love" on you but what he did to you is wrong in SO many ways. I'm sorry you are left with the pain and grief.

Many hugs
TN

quote:

It is totally reprehensible that it would take a T THREE WEEKS to respond to an email from a patient who was in such a dire place. I know this may be difficult to hear but he abandoned you right there, Beebs. He is worthless as a T and even unethical. You were asking him if your therapy could be salvaged and he ignored that?

Then he shows his cowardice by sending the bill and an email to your dh? YOU were his first client, not your dh and this was in regard to YOUR treatment. That is unethical as well as being a coward.

I agree with TN, this man is not a good therapist and I look forward to the time you can experience a true loving supportive therapist who really knows his stuff. Not this person.

I am so sorry Beebs you are going through this. Sigh. It will hurt. It is painful stuff.

(BB)) (((((((BB)))))))))

It's just hard to accept. I need to beleive that hge offered me good things and that he cared. I really would not have stayed with this therapist for two years if he was a complete monster. He offered me a lot of care and I had many wonderful, healing sessions with him. He wasn't terrible. He wasn't.

BB... I know this is hard to accept and I'm not saying he was a total monster and never did anything to help you... but he didn't do enough of the right things. The reason you stayed was a good reason but not a healthy reason. You tried to fix it and make it okay. You tried to do what you did as a child. You tried to make it all good and right. You thought if you were only a better, smarter, braver, easier patient it would turn into a successful therapeutic relationship. But as good as you were BB, you could not do this if your T was unwilling to participate. I know he offered some good things and some care... he just was not the right T. He couldn't be the T you needed him to be due to his own limitations. Not because you were asking too much or were not a good enough patient. I'm sure he cared in his way but he was not up to the work that needed to be done.

I find it interesting that you very much want and need to hold onto the good things in your relationship... while I have violently and forecefully rejected ANY good thing that my OldT "may" have given me. I just cannot even think of my therapy and just yesterday cried to my T that my relationship with oldT was NOT real. That nothing about it was real. And that I rejected it all and I reject who I was with my oldT because that person was stupid enough and horrible and disgusting enough to get herself abandoned and rejected and traumatized by oldT. If he could find no redeeming qualities in that person I was becoming then why should I accept her???

I'm not saying either of us is wrong or right. Just making an observation.

Sorry again for your pain, Beebs.

TN

The thing is that I really was not doing good work. I really was stuck. I really was not trying hard enough. He didn't really reject me- he just...idk. I can't explain it. I have nothing to hang onto except that I left, because I couldn't do it right. I would go there and just sit and not vocalize anything. When I did talk it wasn't enough. When I didn't talk it was fine, according to my T- as long as that was "what I needed." I never knew what I needed. That was why he rejected me. Because I couldn't figure out what I needed. I didn't know what I was supposed to talk about. I did languish in therapy, Liese, waiting for him to fix me. I wasn't sure what to say. I can't ask him anything because the relationship is over. And all of this is just hanging out there unresolved.
We'd get into stuff, a little bit- my core issues.. and then..it would just never come up again, never resolve. I kept giving up, waiting for him to show me the way forward, but he never seemed to. It was just...time to stop. But I feel like a failure. A big blank.

(((BB)))
i'm sorry you're hurting!
and i'm sorry that i'm getting stuck on something which might not be helpful to you... like you say, he did a lot of good too... but i think a T who will reply to an email in 3 weeks, is a T who can't and shouldn't handle emails with his clients! WHO replies to emails in 3 weeks!??

i am really sorry BB, my anger is of no use to you...

and YOU are NOT a failure!

puppet

BB- I obviously have no idea what is supposed to go on in therapy or how to do it correctly, but in everything I have read about red flags and when to leave a bad therapist

quote:

telling me that I will not be able to find care like his anywhere out there, that there was something very special about what he was offering to me-

This is always one of the signs to step back and take a close look or leave. Telling a client this is just not the thing to do. I am sorry he has caused you so much pain.

Dear Beebee,

Please hang on to this: you asked repeatedly, with great courage, for regular sessions. You figured out (with no help from him on this) that irregular sessions were really causing you a lot of pain, sending you repeatedly into an abandonment and rejection spiral. You pulled yourself out of that spiral enough to recognise the problem, and you summoned up courage through huge fear to ask for what you knew you needed. You even communicated to him how hard it was to ask, and how happy it made you when he said yes.

And then *even though he said yes to your request*, he did NOT stick to regular sessions with you. At the first opportunity he asked if you were ready to STOP regular sessions again, because he didn't have time to fit you in.

I'm asking you to hold on to this because this is the most concrete, undeniable fact. He did that. And most clients don't even have to ASK for regular sessions, let alone fight for them. They can just rely on them and look forward to them. You have no idea how much that changes the therapy dynamic - because you have not yet experienced it. Remember how much more stable you got when you thought you would have regular, predictable access to him? HEAPS more stable. Things got easier. You started to develop some trust in him and the process. And then he just tore it away. You did your part, Beebs. You did everything you needed to. He failed you.

I'm sure he is a good T for people who are already basically healed and who have the same willingness to avoid that he does. But his professional responsibility was to you, and he didn't meet it at all.

Sending the bill to your husband - he's trying to avoid stirring you up. Maybe he's also trying to get your H to take some responsibility for things. Whatever. It's still avoidant and it hurts you and there are better ways to deal with it that he could have chosen.

You're still hurting because he retraumatised you Beebs. Over and over, actually, through each of those long, long gaps in therapy when you really needed someone to be consistently there for you. It shouldn't have been rocket science to figure out that was what you needed, from a professional point of view. He didn't give it to you because for whatever reason, he's incapable.

But no, he's not a monster. You did have some good sessions, and I am not at all surprised that it took two years to figure out you weren't getting what you needed in the big picture. Because the way he operates - he was giving you little bits of occasional great, like a slot machine that pays out once in a while. This is actually a psychological effect called partial reinforcement, and it is the best way ever to get people addicted and dependent. It works on pretty much *everyone*. If you give a mouse cheese every time they come to you, they will trust you and only come to you when they need cheese. If you give a mouse cheese once in a while, it never knows when it will get cheese or when there will be a cheese shortage, so it gets addicted to coming to you and looking for cheese *all* the time.

It takes a long time to see the overall pattern and be able to break away. I'm not saying he *intended* to do this, just that he *did* do this. And really - with his professional experience he should have known better. But for you - you are not the T. You had no way of knowing. You didn't even start by knowing your own needs - how could you know whether he was able to meet them or not?

But you know now, Beebs. Keep giving yourself time to hurt over this. It is terribly painful. But TN is absolutely right - with a good therapist, when you are ready, you will have the connection and healing that you need and want, not only for yourself but for your beloved family. It will be much, much easier than this has been. Really.

Love,
Jones

quote:

but i think a T who will reply to an email in 3 weeks, is a T who can't and shouldn't handle emails with his clients! WHO replies to emails in 3 weeks!??

Thanks puppet, that's a really good point. If he is too busy to answer emails than he should never allow them. Allowing email contact and then not responding to it consistently is so confusing. He should have said the first time I sent one- "I do not allow emails, but only discuss matters in session." right? or "I allow one 200 word email once per week, because that is all I can deal with in my schedule."

I know it's getting old, but I appreciate the responses, because I'm really trying to put the blame on him, if just so that I can feel better- but I can't seem to consistently do it. It's really, really, really hard for me to accept that he has screwed up in any way, shape or form. So I go back and forth, back and forth- it's exhausting to the point where I cannot process it or think about it at all clearly anymore, and I'm totally shut down emotionally.

Thanks stoppers...I tried to respond to your thread twice, but couldn't post my reply for some reason. But I understand how it feels to not know how to do therapy right, and to understand what the heck we are supposed to be getting out of it.

TN, I don't know why I want to hang onto the good things. My sense of self-worth is very closely tied in with whether my T cared about me or not, so when I think about the ways he showed care, but then took it away, it is extremely, extremely painful to me. The fact that he has placed the blame for failed treatment entirely on my shoulders is extremely difficult to deal with. I was always looking for some kind of understanding from him or admission that he made some mistakes. Then I would feel very guilty for *that.*

I do feel I shouldn't post so much about it, that I'm a broken record, or that I am being too helpless and needy and should quit talking about it, buck up and just go find myself another T. It's taking me too long. I think I don't deserve any support with this, because what I have to do is so clear and simple to everyone else, and such a fight inside of me.
I know it's myself that feels that way and not you guys- but it does feel scary to post about it, because I keep imagining this huge collective eye-roll.

I am afraid of therapy, guys. Therapy really screwed me up. It messed my head. I was better off before. Why would I do this again, with someone new?

But, in desperation, some considerations I've been mulling over, in spite of this:

-A CBT/DBT therapist this time, and avoid the emotional stuff, learn skills and behavior changes that may set me on the right track

-medication, (pharmaceuticals, not holistic stuff)

-a female therapist, they scare the bejabbers out of me, but I would avoid the paternal transference aspect that I have come to fear

I'm trying to hang onto my reasons for leaving this T. I know he would let me come back, and that both hurts terribly, and is a good thing. What he wouldn't do, is talk honestly with me about what has been happening, or lead a sincere dialog about options and what may work for me, with me about it.

Jones, that was an excellent post and an important point to make about the sessions. BB was insightful enough to know what she needed, brave enough to ask for it, and kind enough to give her T the feedback on how helpful it was. Then he changed the game plan. Beebs did it all correctly. There has to be trust and safety in the therapuetic relationship for it to work and in order to develop the trust there needs to be absolute consistency by the T and a solid frame to the therapy sessions. Same time, same place, same length (unless there is a good reason to request an extra time here and there).

When I first started with my current T his book was pretty full and he was moving me all over the place to fit me in and I was feeling unstable and insecure about discussing anything much with him beyond the horrible grief I was in. He KNEW this was not a good arrangement and asked me to hang in with him that he was trying to free up a regular standing appointment time(s) for me. Evidently, someone was in the termination stage with him and then eventually left. Once I had that standing appointment our relationship really took off and so did my healing and the developing trust and attachment. My T stresses to me all the time that reliability and consistency is what to look for in a T. He is a rock. Never moves around. I do. He is just there for me. I know that I see him Monday and Thursday. If he is on vacation we discuss it weeks in advance and make an alternate schedule. Only once did he ask to move my appt to the next day and once he moved it up to earlier in the day.

All of this is very important and what your T was unable to provide. It is the very basics of the T-patient relationship. You deserve to have this Beebs.

Love
TN

Aw, Jones, I crossposted with you. Thanks for that whole post.. For some reason I can see it, it's more concrete when you put it that way. I really wasn't asking him to move worlds for me, to just meet regularly and consistently with me, was I? I still feel so wrong for asking for that. So ashamed of needing it.

TN:

quote:

All of this is very important and what your T was unable to provide. It is the very basics of the T-patient relationship.

Thank you TN, for reinforcing what Jones said. I'm really trying to see it. I got slammed with pain again today, I've been on auto pilot because I had to be since I had a large event. Yesterday was recovery and then today, it just hit me so hard again, and I had to go to bed when my poor H came home.

You are keeping me standing, thank you for sustaining me.

I made some progress today, because I did try to at least look up a few t's online, and see if any struck me. I have to find a way to get into my life for my kid's sake. They are growing up to a large extent without a mom present to them much of the time, and that cannot be. I did try, I thought he would help me. My SD helped me, and he said that I must try to find another therapist. I *will* try to listen to him, and to you.

quote:

This is actually a psychological effect called partial reinforcement, and it is the best way ever to get people addicted and dependent. It works on pretty much *everyone*. If you give a mouse cheese every time they come to you, they will trust you and only come to you when they need cheese. If you give a mouse cheese once in a while, it never knows when it will get cheese or when there will be a cheese shortage, so it gets addicted to coming to you and looking for cheese *all* the time.

I just read this again. Like you say, he didn't mean to maybe, but he really *did* that to me didn't he, Jones? And then he discouraged and frowned on that dependence that he had created! No wonder I feel like my brain is peeling every day...Why would he do that?

Oh, I am sorry, Sadly- I forgot to thank you for your very kind post.

quote:

If you give a mouse cheese every time they come to you, they will trust you and only come to you when they need cheese. If you give a mouse cheese once in a while, it never knows when it will get cheese or when there will be a cheese shortage, so it gets addicted to coming to you and looking for cheese *all* the time.

Jones,
This is the perfect description of anxious attachment. A child can't go out and explore because they can't know the parent will be there when they return, so instead they hover anxiously so that there are there for those rare moments they can get what they need. It prevents them from developing and differentiating, ensuring that the child stays enmeshed and incaple of recognizing their own needs.

Beebs without security there was no way for you to learn your needs. Your T asking you to identify your needs without providing consistency and security is like handing someone a bucket with holes all over it and telling them to fetch some water.

And Beebs, I think your need to hang on so hard to your T being "good" ties back to a childhood need. When we are children it is literally a matter of life and death that our attachment figure attend to our needs. A child who is never touched will actually die. If our life depends on something we have a very deep need, driven by our instinct for survival, to see it as "good" and as something that can be relied on. I disassociated in order not to face what my father was. It protected me from realizing what terrible danger I was in, but it also short circuited my ability to protect myself by rendering me incapable of knowing the danger of moving closer to my father in an attempt to get my needs met.

I think you are being driven by deep, intense, unconscious needs to find safety. What we're trying to convey is that as an adult you are NOT powerless, nor are you tied to a flawed T they way you HAD to be tied to your parents.

But I also realize that all the cognitive understanding in the world pales in comparison to the feelings you are enduring. Give yourself time and space to grieve in Beebs. I am still grieving for my T after a good ending and contact when I need. I know you would not tell me that I should be over it yet. How much more true is this for you after such a short time has passed.

Aglet

Thank you Aglet. It was just so confusing, for so long you know- I couldn't figure it out because he would say: "I really think I can help you.." and I wanted so much to believe and trust that he was right. So I kept going back, and going back, thinking.."if I just give it a little more time..." and sometimes it would be good, and other times I was a wreck. Then on day I woke up after a pretty good session, in fact- and realized really clearly that I am in much worse shape then I was before I started therapy. I decided to break that day, and I followed through.

Anxious attachment describes it perfectly..that is just what it felt like. I never knew whether he would be kind and understanding, or cold and removed. He even told me once that he did that on purpose, because I asked him point blank, why it felt like sometimes he was really kind and others not so much. he told me that I was addicted to him and that sometimes he had to give into the addiction when the pain got too bad. I trusted him. I really did. I thought that was good and what I needed, and so I tried to suffer through it, thinking it would make me stronger, and make me a better person, more able to tolerate pain and withdrawl. I thought he knew what he was doing and that it hurt alot but it was for my long-term benefit, and that I had to suffer it in order to get better. I really did. I felt very guilty moving closer. Like I was giving into my addiction.

I'm really struggling to let go of that thinking, now, because it became a belief, of sorts. A part of my strong inner have-no-mercy on myself network, was really strengthened and solidified by that, I think. It's hard to let it go.

(((((BB)))))
I can't add anything to the amazing posts/advice/validation of you BB and the anger and disappointment at what this T has done to you!!! It has all been summed up and I know in your heart you know the truth of how much he failed you!! Big time!! How to get through this pain? IHNFI!!! except to just accept what has happened/breathe through it, as hard as it is and know you will survive this with your own 'many' inner strengths and insights and with the care and support of this community!!

Grrrrrrrr!!! Others have said they'd kick him in the shins - stuff that - I'd go for more sensitive areas!!

Love, Morgs xx

BB, I am sorry that you are hurting so much. This really isn’t your fault but I know it doesn’t matter how many times people tell you this, until you can accept this as a truth yourself they are just words. It is so hard when you are the one involved in the relationship as you are the one experiencing all the feelings coming up and other people are able to view the relationship objectively. You know BB, many clients are vulnerable within a therapy relationship and therapists can have a huge influence on these people. You gave your all to this man, you trusted him and tried to please him and that wasn’t enough for him. You shouldn’t have to be in fear of saying the wrong thing…that isn’t how therapy should be.

I think I work in a similar way to you in that I will always look to myself to blame when things go wrong especially if it is to do with a valued relationship. There is so much I could pick up on in what you have said that shows that this is about your T and not you but others have already done that so well.

Your T has abused his power and your trust within this relationship by saying to you that you will not find someone who will offer you something as special and the same kind of care as him. This is manipulative. This is something done in relationships to hold the power over someone so that the person will believe that they are not good enough to receive care from others therefore staying with that person. I can totally understand why you wouldn’t trust another T and it will most likely take time for you to build up the belief that you are worthy of the care and support that this T led you to believe he was giving you. However, as outsiders we all already know that you are more than worthy of this.

I’m sorry BB, you probably don’t want to read any of what I have written, I honestly know how hard it is to see the negative in someone who has meant so much to you, to want to hang on to the good things so that you can believe that they are the caring person you once knew them to be even though what they are portraying now is completely different. I have been in a similar position of having to let someone go because they were hurting me but I really cared about them and I didn’t want to believe that they could hurt me in the way that they did. My self-belief took a massive blow and I am still processing it all now. It will take time to heal from this but I know that you have the strength to do so. You are not at all a broken record you are simply hurting, and it may seem to you that it is clear and simple to others but that is because they do not have the emotions attached to this that you do therefore can provide an outside perspective. We all care for and want the best for you.

Having our trust broken is a huge and painful thing Beebs and I hope you can allow yourself some kindness and time to adjust and that you keep reaching out for support. I believe you will find another T to continue on your path of healing when you are ready.

((((((((((BB))))))))))

Many hugs for you
Butterfly

PS – If this is really unhelpful to you let me know and I will delete.

((((Morgs)))) thanks.
Butterfly, your reply was so perfect, I thank you for your understanding. Please don't delete it, it means all the more to me that you feel nervous but offered me so much wisdom anyway. ((((Butterfly))))

Morgs:

quote:

It has all been summed up and I know in your heart you know the truth of how much he failed you!! Big time!! How to get through this pain? IHNFI!!! except to just accept what has happened/breathe through it, as hard as it is and know you will survive this with your own 'many' inner strengths and insights and with the care and support of this community!!

thanks Morgs because I guess in my heart I know, even though I am still really confused, or I would not have broken from him. I keep thinking though of his face, and how kindly he would look, and how truly caring he could be at times, and how he could be so humble at times, so I get confused by those thoughts in light of the bad stuff. It just doesn't make sense, and I still tend to think I'm misinterpreting things or that I left things and didn't address them so that he never had the opportunity to repair them with me. But the bottom line really was that- it wasn't a case of therapy making things harder because I was processing difficult material. It was really a case of the relationship itself causing me more and more pain, and it took me awhile to be able to see that the pain was not healing me or making me stronger as I thought it was, but that I became so frantic that I would sit *all day* on here in agony, waiting for all you guys to help me figure it out, so sweetly and patiently- and receive some validation- while my life was passing me by. I'm still healing from that, but it has gotten a lot better than it was. My T did help with my marriage, some of his insights, combined with those of my SD really helped him to understand how much I need his forgiveness and help, and we are growing a bit closer, although it is still very difficult. That was probably my t's hope, and in some sense although he hurt me very badly I am grateful for the repair work that was done on my marriage.

Butterfly:

quote:

This is manipulative. This is something done in relationships to hold the power over someone so that the person will believe that they are not good enough to receive care from others therefore staying with that person. I can totally understand why you wouldn’t trust another T and it will most likely take time for you to build up the belief that you are worthy of the care and support that this T led you to believe he was giving you.

This is like what Jones taught me, about that partial reinforcement, and it is really helpful to me. It's like something concrete was *done* and being able to identify it as something psychologically concrete that he *may* have even *known* he was doing, helps me so much to understand that it wasn't my fault. But it hurts that he would do that to me, and then be so sweet and kind and just good, I wish I could explain to you how good he really is. It makes me think that if he was like that, it means that the majority of T's are just seriously screwed up, manipulative, power-hungry people, who love to have this power over people, as a part of the legacy of human nature and that it's just not good to let any person have that much power over you! It's like you say Butterfly, only, I don't know what that care T was talking about means or if I want it. I find the whole concept of care within the T relationship really scary painful and confusing, and that's why I am thinking CBT, if I go back, as there is no pretense of "care" within that, beyond the professional care of a doctor trying to help someone get better.
disagreement/discussion is very welcome.

The last thing I need to say, is that it has been really bothering me and causing me guilt feelings that Jones made this key point, and I have been trying to not say anything, but I find I have to:

Jones:

quote:

And then *even though he said yes to your request*, he did NOT stick to regular sessions with you. At the first opportunity he asked if you were ready to STOP regular sessions again, because he didn't have time to fit you in.

My T made it really clear that the only reason he was suggesting the switch back (again) was because the shorter sessions were leaving me in a bad emotional place a lot of the time, and he said that he did not want to have to leave me in a bad emotional place, and longer sessions every two weeks would take care of that, but it was up to me to decide. I just have to confess this, because I feel like that was your key point, and he did address that. I'm sorry. But the reality was that I could not count on having regualr weekly sessions without monthly disruptions in that schedule. Nor would he made a regualr time for me in his schedule, even after two years, no matter how much I may have needed that.

Thanks for all the helpful support and input, all of you. I hope I have not been too much. I'm sorry for beings so confused and going back and forth so much in my thinking. I'm trying to hang onto the reasons for leaving but they keep evaporating, as I then find good reasons for why my T said the things he said. But I know that two years is a long time to stay with a T and not get better, but get worse. It seems I am now trying to discover whose fault that was- his, or mine. Thinking it's his fault causes me huge guilt, and thinking it's mine is equally intolerable so I am a bit stuck.

I thank you all for all your help yesterday I'm doing better today- thanks to all of you.

Hugs, love,

BB

((((((( Beebs ))))))))

I was going to post earlier on another thread you had about your T’s email to you, but that thread moved on pretty quickly and I never got around to posting it. Now however I feel I’ve got to show up and say some of the things I was going to post back then.

It’s heartbreaking hearing you being torn into a million little pieces over the relationship with your T. I can’t say I even begin to understand the depth of your pain, because I’m lucky enough to have access to a lot of anger which keeps me from continuing to take the blame for hurt that other’s cause, (it also stops me seeing very much good in the other too, but that’s a different issue…)

But I do hear your pain and confusion and while I also had and continue to have serious doubts about your T, I’m not inclined to think that he is some kind of manipulative controlling insensitive monster – which is the temptation because for you to be in THIS much pain tends to point to your T being monstrous to the same degree.

I think you and your T just weren’t a good ‘fit’. I get the impression that a lot of what was going wrong in your therapy was down to intrinsic miscommunication. That your T didn’t have the skills or insight or emotional experience to understand what you were trying to convey to him, and that his major failing seemed to me to be that he didn’t continually check with you what you were attempting to communicate. He put too much responsibility onto you to explain yourself and left you to direct your own therapy too much.

So what that means is that while I think he wanted to help you and probably did care about you insofar as he was able, he just didn’t ‘get’ you. Each time you described what had been going on in your sessions, I got the impression that it was like the pair of you were trying to talk to each other in foreign languages – seemingly saying the same thing but neither really understanding what the other meant.

I have now seen a grand total of 33 therapists over the course of my life, 22 of those in the last two years. (I’m obviously still trying for the world record!) In retrospect I can understand that the single factor getting in the way of any of them working out, was that none of them ever wanted to know me, not none of them took the time to properly listen to what I was trying to convey to them. I ALWAYS felt as if I wasn’t being heard, and most definitely wasn’t being understood. The point of my saying this is that very few of those 33 therapists were bad, or manipulative or controlling or whatever (some were however!) but rather that they just didn’t have the ability to meet me where I was at, and I think that’s what’s happened with your T. He’s not bad, or even incompetent in general terms, but he simply doesn't get you, couldn’t find a way to meet you where you need to be met.

Not sure if that’s any comfort at all Beebs, but it might give you an alternative to having to find blame or fault in either you or your T. So long as you can stand up for having needs in the first place (which strikes me as being something you struggle with) maybe these last two years will actually be positive in the long run, will have given you a much clearer idea of what it is you do need – from therapy, from other people...

I hope you can bring yourself to see another T, I think that will give you a much needed different perspective on things, regardless of whether you choose to stay in therapy or for now give yourself a break from it all...

Big hugs to you Beebs

LL

Lampers!!!! ((((((((((((Lampers)))))))))))

It is *so* good to see you. I've been thinking a lot about you lately and wondering very much how you've been coping, and what the story is with you these days. I know the need to stay quiet, too, though.

Lampers- thank you for your response. Yes, yes, and yes. You have framed it for me just perfectly. It is this:

quote:

I think you and your T just weren’t a good ‘fit’. I get the impression that a lot of what was going wrong in your therapy was down to intrinsic miscommunication. That your T didn’t have the skills or insight or emotional experience to understand what you were trying to convey to him, and that his major failing seemed to me to be that he didn’t continually check with you what you were attempting to communicate. He put too much responsibility onto you to explain yourself and left you to direct your own therapy too much.

So what that means is that while I think he wanted to help you and probably did care about you insofar as he was able, he just didn’t ‘get’ you. Each time you described what had been going on in your sessions, I got the impression that it was like the pair of you were trying to talk to each other in foreign languages – seemingly saying the same thing but neither really understanding what the other meant.

yes Lampers- just this. and I think that is why I stuck with it so long. I just kept hoping that since I was pretty sure my T was of good will, we would somehow be able to "reach" eachother, if I could just work hard enough at it, if I could just learn to communicate to him the right way- if *I* could just get it right. But as you say, he left me there, to figure it out on my own, because knowing me was not of that much importance to him. My H said it really well. He said- "BB, he has his own wife- his own family- he is crazy about *them* he wants to know and help and care about *them.* Not his clients." My H siad that where my T made his mistake with me, was in insisting that he "cares" about me, and that in order to heal I needed to accept that caring. My H said- "he doesn't care about you, BB. Not like that. Not like you need him to. He doesn't want ot *know* you. He should have kept it a strict Dr./ Patient relationship, and not insisted on you accepting all this human caring."

I think that my H is right. If he had done that, kept that emotional boundary in place, as my SD so carefully does- the caring would have kind of "wafted out" to me, and I would have been able to feel it, and heal from it, since it would have been in proper context. I needed a more boundaried kind of caring, and a more honest "this is what I can offer" kind of caring, I think.

That's why I'm half-considering CBT...I think it might work *for me* since I cannot seem to differentiate or understand subtlety in the very unusual T relationship.

Lampers, your reply is a huge comfort to me! thank you so much for showing up and helping me. ((((((Lamplighter)))))

I hope you will be able to post about how things are going with you, but I completely understand if you just can't. I missed you, my friend.

Hugs,

BB

Aw hey there Beebs, I'm glad my words gave you something positive in the horrendous pain you are suffering now. And thankyou for making me feel so welcome I've been in a pretty paranoid state for a while hence hiding out in lurkdom, but your story really did make me want to come back and speak up. (Lol and once I start talking there's no stopping me.) Will think about posting where I'm at in therapy soon (be warned guys!)

About CBT - though I personally hate loathe and detest anything that smacks of CBT, I can also see very clearly how it can be helpful for lots of things. My reservation about your going down the CBT road Beebs, is that you're very bright and have a good intellectual insight into your own thinking and beliefs, and that the CBT approach might not take you to the emotional levels I think you need to access... Who knows though, lots of therapists these days combine CBT with other approaches so it might just be the ticket.

Yeah I get what you're saying about boundaries with your T - like trust, being able to feel someone else's caring isn't a rational/intellectual thing and to have him keep telling you you needed to accept his caring really sent some conflicting messages. Your H said some pretty astute things about that. Again I see that as miscommunication, what 'caring' means to you and what it means to your T may well have been two completely different things.

I'm really really sorry not just for the pain you are going through now, but for all the pain this T has caused you over the last two years, and I hope that are able to find a space in amongst all the horrible things going on in your head to get some clarity on what YOU need and how YOU can actually get it. It is possible Beebs, I have every faith that you will get there!

Hugs again (((( Beebs ))))

LL

I just wanted to let you know that someone else out there feels your pain. When I found out my T was leaving his practice, I literally spent days in a daze, unable to stop crying. It's been a little over a month since I last saw him and I just want to tell you that it does get better.

It definitely doesn't feel like it will, but it does. I know what it feels like to leave with unfinished business too. It flipping hurts, sucks, and is TERRIBLE.

You can start new with someone else. Maybe not now, but you can in the future. I used to say that if it didn't work out with my old therapist that I wasn't going to try someone else. Things change though, when you're faced with being alone with those inner most thoughts. You learn to reach out again and try to trust again.

(((((mucho love)))))

quote:

like trust, being able to feel someone else's caring isn't a rational/intellectual thing and to have him keep telling you you needed to accept his caring really sent some conflicting messages. Again I see that as miscommunication, what 'caring' means to you and what it means to your T may well have been two completely different things.

Well said, Lamps. you've really clarified stuff for me...thank you!

M nte it's so nice to see you! Thanks for the invitation to keep posting all my feelings about it. That part is hard. I can post thoughts, usually feelings come a bit harder to post. I'm always impressed with the posters who can put it all out there, and I've been consciously trying to do that sometimes. Which probably defeats the purpose! thanks you for my prayers, Monte. That is very valuable to me, as you know.

Beautifully Bipolar- I don't think we have "met" yet! It is nice to meet you thank you for posting. (May I call you..BBtoo? I am sorry you know this place, and I thank you for the encouragement that it does get better. I need to believe that. ((((hugs and welcome)))

BB

BB,

Letting it all "come out" is good. I did it to tonight in my post and isn't that what we are here for to help each other through the tough times.

I appreciated you "Welcome" and I hope I can help you feel better about "venting,ranting etc"

LW

Thank you, LW! I haven't seen your post, but I will find it and read it. Thank you for the support to "vent."

hugs,

BB

based on my constant contradictions in what I write, think, and feel- I am beginning to really think that it didn't matter *what* my T did or didn't do, it would have been wrong no matter what. That I was just impossible to please. Impossible to help. I think he felt that with me. Maybe that is why therapy can't really work for me. idk. I just can't figure out what I need, what *I* believe, feel think. arg. so frustrated today. I think he just was at a loss with me. I was impossible. I kept changing and moving around too much for him.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
based on my constant contradictions in what I write, think, and feel- I am beginning to really think that it didn't matter *what* my T did or didn't do, it would have been wrong no matter what. That I was just impossible to please. Impossible to help. I think he felt that with me. Maybe that is why therapy can't really work for me. idk. I just can't figure out what I need, what *I* believe, feel think. arg. so frustrated today. I think he just was at a loss with me. I was impossible. I kept changing and moving around too much for him.

Not much to say, but I want to respectfully disagree...with every ounce of my being. My first T once said that some parents aren't good 'matches' for their kids...the same definitely goes for therapists. And that doesn't mean you can't have good moments, it just means that, in the long run, there's something that just doesn't mesh and that is certainly not your fault. ((((Beebs))))

Beebs,

I agree with Kashley. It's not you, it's the dyad. It just didn't work, and it's not YOUR fault, so please don't blame yourself. I know it's easier said than done, but please try. I'm sorry you are in so much pain from all of this. I hope you can get things sorted out for yourself, and yes--please keep posting and getting it all out. Keeping everything pent up inside of you only makes things worse--I know.

Hang in there, BB!!

Hugs,
MTF

Thank you Kashley and MTF ((MTF! nice to see you once again))! )

Thank you for continuing to support my "break" from T as not my fault. I keep thinking of all the good things he did, and it is killing me to think that I just couldn't accept it/it was my fault/i was bad, just bad. I'm trying so hard to remember that he just couldn't give me the strong and consistent support that I needed from him- for whatever reason.

I miss him real bad tonight. Wish I could email him, just schedule a session. It's all the worse because I *could* do that, you know? (but it also wouldn't be ok?)I'm fighting the urge.

BB