Beebers,

Nothing that you have written looks like 'your fault' in any way. You have stuck at trying to work through this for a long time and so sadly always are too quick to blame yourself (((((feathers)))))) AG is right about consistency being vital to learn trust in a relationship, without that trust no therapy can take place. You were very brave in asking to have those and other needs met, that is never an easy thing to do, but he wasn't able to meet those basic needs or even give you satisfactory explanations and forum for discussion.

It will hurt now dear BB,even though what you have done seems like the best thing for you , there will still be the pain of the relationship that has been lost. I am glad to are plucking up courage to look at the options of other Ts....take time BB and make sure you feel comfortable before you jump in. As for CBT, my T occasionally does a little sometimes - mostly doesn't cos it annoys the hell out of me , BUT for some things it has been really surprisingly helpful It's horses for courses I guess, my T uses what approach is right for me at the time and that's what seems important.

Take good care dear BB,

starfishy

Beebs,

Please don't blame yourself. This is not your fault. I know you are hurting and its going to take some time before it stops hurting so bad, but know that you are doing the right thing for yourself.

(((((BB)))))

(((Beebs)))
Considering all that's happened, you're travelling pretty well lady!!! Be more gentle with yourself! Love, Morgs x

Monte, Starfish, LG and Morgs, I thank you for the continued help and encouragemtn and support. I guess I am doing ok. I don't know.

Something just occurred to me and has me freaked out. What if T cares? Like- I walked away and didn't really bother to say goodbye or tell him I would check back with him ever or anything like that, never really thanked him or anything- just said I needed a break and took one- because my assumption has always been that he really and truly doesn't care one teeny bit nor will he even remember my existence now that I'm gone, so no apologies or thanks or goodbyes would be needed, right?

But- what if he *does?* I mean what if he actually *remembers* me, or thinks of me once in awhile? There is something like- then I've been a total jerk in my own little bubble, never considering that I might have the capacity to hurt people by not responding appropriately?

I really don't think he cares though. I mean- I really don't think I exist in his working memory. i think it's all ok. owwie.


BB

((BB))

You are torturing yourself. A couple of pages back, you sounded like you were formulating a plan. You made that list of maybe different therapists you could see. (The CBT, etc.) Why not just see someone for a short period time to help you process this? You don't have to commit to therapy again. But just find someone in the field to help you hopefully stop beating yourself up.

I'm wondering where all this, "I wouldn't have listened to anyone" stuff is coming from. That sounds like transference. Maybe you would have listened to someone if the message was clear and concise. Maybe his message was too confusing. It sounded to me like you worked really hard in therapy.

((((HUGS))))

Liese

BB, i don't think you should be worried at all about whether you hurt him - he should be able to look after himself and you don't owe him anything. it sounds like he kept quite a distance anyway, don't worry about him. you are too sweet and he doesn't deserve it anyway.

((BB))

puppet

quote:

But- what if he *does?* I mean what if he actually *remembers* me, or thinks of me once in awhile? There is something like- then I've been a total jerk in my own little bubble, never considering that I might have the capacity to hurt people by not responding appropriately?

I really don't think he cares though. I mean- I really don't think I exist in his working memory. i think it's all ok. owwie.

Beebs,
Do you see what you're doing (unconsciously!) here? You're setting up only two possible interpretations of the facts, and either way you lose. Either he really cared and you're a horrible person for how you treated him OR he didn't care which proves your a horrible person.

No matter where you start, you end up at you being a horrible person. Which just isn't true. Your T could have cared but just not been the right person to help you. And you may not have said much on the way out, but you were terribly hurt BB and as a professional therapist, he understands a patient being in so much pain that they have to just leave.

Way too hard on yourself Beebs. Try and put that hammer down for just a little while and give yourself a rest.

love, Aglet

Beebs,

If T cares and is hurt or affected by your leaving, that is for him to deal with. It is for him to analyze where he may have gone wrong, where he could have done something differently, and where he could have had a different outcome.

I hate to see you hurting this much, BB. You don't deserve it at all. Going back to what I said before...if he does think about you it *still* doesn't mean that he was the perfect T for you. Just because he thinks or cares about you DOES NOT make you a horrible person simply because the relationship between the two of you didn't work. Like AG said, you are inevitably setting yourself up to end up as a horrible person which just isn't true.

I don't want to go all philosophical on you, but have you heard of Ockham's Razor? The simplest explanation is often the best? The simplest explanation to me is that he just wasn't a good fit for you. You deserve a rest from this beating you are giving yourself, Beebs.

I'm mulling these replies over, and I'm grateful for the input from all of you. I will be back to reply later.

My H seems opposed to the idea of spending still more money on therapy, and I don't feel able to insist on it when it is something I am so confused about myself. He made a comment tonight he said I seem like I'm "in a lot of pain, where before therapy you were just in a daze all the time." So maybe I did make progress in some totally weird way. Just wish I could figure out what the pain is about.

I'm hearing you all, and I will put the hammer down at least, I will try not to say bad stuff on here about me, I didn't realize I was doing that so much. arg. now I feel bad for *that.* sheesh. bleeping inner critic.

BB

Thank you so much Liese, puppet, AG, LG, and Kashley and Frosty. I'm just really really stuck today, stuck in depression and inactivity and disconnection, so I haven't been able to respond, or think of anything to say. I'm real sorry about that. I'll be back later on.

hugs,

BB

((((((BB))))))

Can you dial that bastard up and just tell him off? Wouldn't that feel good? Dang it, BB, he left you hanging.

quote:

Just wish I could figure out what the pain is about.

Hon... that pain is loss and grief. You are grieving the absence of a very important person in your life. He may not have been the best T for you but I would never try to downplay the important role he had in your life. The loss has to be mourned and that takes time. As for me, I would never have been able to handle the grief without my current T to help me. To be there to listen to me ask why why why and to sit with me while I cry. I know I could never have done this alone.

You are in pain and I think you need a place... a safe place with someone who understands so that you can discharge it. So that you can examine it and understand it and then let it go. I'm not there yet but I'm working on it. It's been almost a year for me. It takes a long time to heal from this.

Thinking of you Beebs.

Hugs
TN

Hi BB,

1st I want to appologize if I'm interupting anybody's conversation. I admit I did not have the time to read past page two. But I just want to say, don't blame yourself for any of this. What I'm learning about therapy is that there is no roadmap of how to act. And when we get so wrapped up in emotion, how are we supposed to know where to go from here, or who to turn to. We turn to our T or P. That's why they are there. You haven't done anything wrong. If it were possible to detatch ourselves from all of these overwhelming feelings, I think that my former T may not think as bad of me as I suspect. Maybe it's the same for you. But it so hard to say because we have so many emotional thoughts going on in our head.

I found a new T. I enjoyed our 1st session. I encourage you to do the same. If anything, a fresh start with somebody new(although I had to do a lot of searching)was nice. Will it always be nice? Hard to say. But at least I had a break from the misery even if it was just for a few days. Hugs BB.

-SBR

(((((((Beebs))))))))



It's okay to feel your pain for as long as it lasts. We are here, holding you in our hearts.

Wow, you guys it is honestly hard to keep up with all your amazing support for me! It is a very nice problem to have though. Thank you for caring about me.

So I will just say, a few things that strike me.

AG:

quote:

you may not have said much on the way out, but you were terribly hurt BB and as a professional therapist, he understands a patient being in so much pain that they have to just leave.

this was a big comfort to me, AG, Do you really think so? I hope so, I hope he does understand.

Puppet thank you for your reassurances too, and also, you, LadyGrey.

Kashley the thing is, that when I was in a fairy decent spot, he really did feel like the *perfect* T for me. He truly did. It is so hard to see the other side of it. I just keep thinking about how great he was, and how much I need *him* to be my T. Not some other T. You know? It's just hard. Thank you for responding when you are going through so much right now yourself. (((((((Kashley)))) I don't know how you do that.

Frost, I know you are able to relate to the helpless sense of knowing your T is just watching the relationship die, instead of stepping in and confronting the issues that need confronting in order to keep it alive. I think when we grew up with parents who were disinterested/unconcerned with putting themselves out there for the sake of our long term welfare, it triggers that old pain. ((((Frost))))I know about suffering before sessions, hoping and praying to leave them with some sense of peace and connectedness, and never knowing how it would go. I'm glad you have been able to move on and find a T that works for you. Unfortunately, I haven't really said a lot of this here, but I have many reasons besides the ones I've posted here- reasons that make it very difficult for me to find another T. I will keep thinking about it though.

Liese, thanks for your responses. I didn't mean to be torturing myself. I'm just trying to be hoenst about what is going on in me. I know I'm going back and forth and contradicting myself a lot, but that is where I am. as far as yelling at my T? hah, I hear you, but- no, I can't call him up, nor can I yell at him- for one thing I have never called him once in my life, he has always been the one to do the calling, as it is international calling and he absorbed that cost. I would be terrified to call him up overseas, even when I was in seriously bad shape I never once did that- and I have never been able to express anger in front of my T very well. Plus I just don't feel angry at him. Perhaps I should, but I am not able to feel it really, and don't know how to authentically be anything else but flat-line, unless the emotions happen to rise to the surface for some moments. Plus Liese, and this is the most painful thing for me to face- I have no right to address anything with him anymore, to call him or eamil him, because I am not currently a client. Our relationship is not real unless it's a paying one. We don't have a normal human relationship. But thanks for the anger on my behalf, Liese- he really did leave me hanging by a thread over a cliff, and walk away, didn't he? I wonder why he would do that to me? He said he would respond to that last email asking if therapy with him could be salvaged, but now he has sent his final billing, I think it's his final- (to my H)- and the email cost was not included on it, so he must not be planning to respond to it after all. It feels very, very avoidant to me, and it hurts me pretty badly. It makes me feel so toxic. That I am so bad that my T couldn't even just be honest with me and say that he would not be responding to my email, but had to lie and say that he would and then have no intention of ever doing it? Why am I so bad that I would deserve that. It's not even *like* him. It's not him, he doesn't even operate that way...except with me.

TN, thank you for continuing to support me so much. I really miss him. I miss his kindly face and knowing I had someone there that I could (if I ever got brave enough) say anything I needed to. I miss when he *was* totally there for me. I hate the shame I feel left with for screwing it all up so badly. I should not have emailed him so much and so excruciatingly truthfully. I would avoid me too, after some of the things I said. All T could do is tell me they weren't true, but I didn't believe him. He always insisted he was non-judgemental, totally accepting of me, and totally non-defensive. But I am realizing he never addressed my questions about the things that left me feeling neglected and ignored and dismissed. Those I was always supposed to just learn somehow to accept, I suppose.

DF thanks for hugs, honey.

SBR, it is nice to see you. Thanks for responding with your support I really appreciate it. You are not interrupting at all, and nobody would have the time to read this whoole thread, so don't feel bad about that. I'm really delighted that you have found a new T that offered you a break from the sadness and grief and that you felt better. When will you see your new T again?

MH, thank you for the picture, and the permission to share as much as I need to, it really touched my heart.

I have emailed a eq T in my area, who does clinical work and equine therapy. He claims to work with attachment. The other guy, the one I contacted back in MArch when things were starting to break down for me in T- I watched a video of him on youtube, and he just doesn't seem like somebody I can work with. this other guy,his fees are incredibly reasonable and I like the look of his picture, although he is not much older than me which always intimidates me. He claims to work with attachment issues. I like older people than me generally. It is sheer desperation to get out of this hole I am in that has me having emailed him yesterday, and I don't like it at all. My H will not be happy either, he has said, that "why don't we see how we do without therapy for awhile" and I tend to agree with him after my experience with my T. But I don't know what to do, I am really really stuck, and also, my SD did tell me I must find another T, or go back to mine if things get sorted...so I am confused, but I am at least feeling around in the dark about it. The T I emailed did not email me back. Also I am thinking maybe I should try a female T this time, though they are intimidating, just because I know I will not develop any attachment to a woman. But I don't know. But maybe I could just meet with someone once. It's hard because of this other thing that I can't really talk about on here.

Sorry it took me so long to get back and sorry this is too long an update. And sorry for saying sorry too much.

hugs,

BB

I hope I did nopt miss anybody.

quote:

It feels very, very avoidant to me, and it hurts me pretty badly. It makes me feel so toxic. That I am so bad that my T couldn't even just be honest with me and say that he would not be responding to my email, but had to lie and say that he would and then have no intention of ever doing it?

Beebs,
Sorry this is such a flyby, but the quote above really stood out for me and I just wanted to point out one thing. You are making the assumption that the thing your T is trying to avoid is YOU; what I'm wondering is if it's his own stuff he's avoiding and the wall of denial he has around it is allowing him to NOT see his failure to respond to you. That his behavior is unconscious but is about him not you. You may have been trying to go to places that he was not willing to go to yet. You were not the only person in the relationship Beebs, nor can you take complete responsibility for the breakdown.

Really glad to hear you called the equine T, let us know what you hear back.

And I really do think he understands Beebs (((())))

Aglet

warning, huge rant:

Aglet:

quote:

what I'm wondering is if it's his own stuff he's avoiding and the wall of denial he has around it is allowing him to NOT see his failure to respond to you. That his behavior is unconscious but is about him not you. You may have been trying to go to places that he was not willing to go to yet.

When I tried to tell him stuff like that AG, he would say that then, if that was true and I could see it, then I should be the therapist to him, not him to me, and it just made me real confused. Did he mean that, or was he being sarcastic? He always hated sarcasm and said he takes everything at face value. Sometimes my T felt like a little boy to me. It's so crazy! then another part of me feels he is just this huge, enormous scary person and adores him and is so, so needy, and so grateful for a smile from my T, when he would just stoop to my level, you know?

It got to the point where I felt scared to share my insights or thoughts with him because my issues were mostly around the ways that he was no being helpful, and it got really deep, almost like two therapists talking then him helping me, and I knew *I* brought it there with my emails and that he never intended that, and couldn't deal with it. Of course he couldn't deal with it...show me a therapist who could deal with a client pointing out their countertransferences to them, in order to get their needs met? Show me a T who could handle having a client point out to them where their boundaries are not tight enough, and asking them to please tighten then? I was acting like his supervisor instead of his client for heaven's sake and I am not qualified for that. And it is thoroughly dislikable of me. I dislike that part of myself *hate* that part of myself, very much. I thought if I could make him see those things, though,, then we could move on and he could help. I was terrified to have these conversations with him, so I would send him these long emails. I thought, if he could just be humble enough to admit it, apologize for it, and move past it. And I thought I was was *supposed* to talk to him about what was on my mind about him and explore these "deep trust issues" as he called them. If they were really just my trust issues, and not his unconscious countertransference, then it should have been ok to talk about. Right? Because then we would be addressing *my* issues instead of his, as the therapy was supposed to be, and as I really wanted it to be, and he really wanted it to be. But when I did he insisted to me over and again, that he dealt with his issues in his own sessions and that he had not any of these negative feelings towards my person, that those were my projections. He said he had no idea where I would get these feelings about him from, but that he did not feel defensive towards me at all. I got to be like I was looking for clues to point to it instead of exploring my own issues. gosh. It was crazy making. Why would I *do* that? I sabotaged my own therapy. Now I do not trust myself, him, or my own perceptions at all anymore. At all. I'm totally lost! I could never get safe with him. Never. And here is the thing. Here it is: ***He was a really, really good therapist. I *know* it. I *wrecked* him!**** If only I could have been more *simple* with him. I tried that too. It wasn't authentic. I couldn't do anything right. Everything I tried with him was wrong. The only way I could think of to be authentic anymore with him, was to be totally silent. It was too hard to show him how bossy and know-it-all I really am.

In my last email with him, the one that he never responded to (yet? ) I told him that in order to feel safe and ok, I needed him to honestly admit any countertransference he was experiencing with me. (after all he *told* me countless times to tell him what my needs in the relationship were, and this was one of them, so that I could feel safer with him, knowing that he *knew* and that it *wasn't* unconscious.) It got so darn complicated. I just wanted to have total honesty in communication between us, because I was so confused about him and the little girl part of me, the emotional part- was terrified of him. Why would I *do* that? I am fiercely protective of her. But he just repeated that that would have been me filling his needs. So, so I asked for that, anyway, though I think, because it really *was what I needed!* In order to feel safe. In order to know that he understood what was happening and had it under control. I needed him to admit his own imperfections really honestly and *specifically* in the context of the therapy relationship between us, so that I could move on from there with my own stuff. So that she could talk to him. But he always kept his cards so carefully hidden and told me I was projecting, projecting. (Not his words, but what he meant) And he would make blanket statements about, that this was stuff from the past, making me behave this way, but he didn't help me to explore it, he just talked about it, as if that would help me. I didn't know what to say...of course I ahve used my intellect to be able to carefully gauge people and if they are safe or not...how does having this explained to me, *help* me? I already knew that, that's the thing. So if that is therapy- then...I just don't think therapy can help me. What do I need? What do I need, then? T would say I only needed love- the love he said he could not give me.

And I'm just not so sure I was projecting. If I could have believed him on that, I could have stayed in therapy with him. If I could have just believed and accepted that it was my fault. But I almost got satisfaction when he would make mistakes because then I would be justified in what I suspected- and so I began to obsessively look for his mistakes. I made me sad for him when he made them, but I felt safer for knowing. I had to know. Sometimes I even thought of his mistakes as signs that he had human care for me not just "therapist-care." But I'll never know. and..and...arg. I need to know I was either projecting or not projecting but I didn't believe him when he said I was.

And all of that is the crux of why I had to leave, not *my therapist* but...*therapy.* And why I think therapy cannot help me. It is too complicated when I start to inevitably analyze and perceive a person's motivations and reactions to me. I can't be real and authentic in therapy, because it really is not safe in the context of therapy for me to be who I am- an extremely distrustful person I suppose, who habitually gaurds the door and looks for reasons to further distrust. And- I'm pretty sure I need to pretend a simplicity that I do not possess, in order for any other therapist to be able to have any kind of connective feeling towards me. I am going to say something that sounds I'm tooting my own horn, but I say it really, only to plead to be understood on why I had to leave, and why it is so difficult to think that another therapist could ever possibly help me. My T always told me that I had a "brilliant intellect." Over and over he said that. He sort of marveled I think, that someone like me could think. It was *the only* compliment he ever gave me. It *really* got in the way of my therapy. I absolutely hate that about me. I *hate* my gifts. My "gifts" always ensure that I am disliked, and that I do not *ever* get my emotional needs met. My "gifts" keep *me* locked in the closet, and they beat me mercilessly with their cruel, candid self-knowledge. And clearly, they are not an integral part of who I am nor can I consistently access them, so what is the point?

There. I think I just figured something important out. I wish I could frame it in better words, understand it. What is it? But...even if I could, I still don't have any answers. Just...the question.

arg. I might have to delete this in a bit. I'm sorry, it's just so long, and...so much of me....you know how it is?

Oh BB,

Something you wrote up above really struck me. I don't know if you will find this helpful or not but it is something I experienced in my own therapy. I'm referring to the part where you wrote that sometimes you saw him as a little boy and that you would love to help him if you ever could.

Okay, so I'm going to try to explain something here if I can find the right words. To me, these comments are about needing to be needed in the relationship. I could be completely off base here but it could be all the codependency stuff.

Okay here comes the long story. Within my own therapy, I had been for a long time under the delusion that my T needed me. There was just no other way for me to be in that relationship or any relationship for that matter without being needed. I NEEDED to believe he needed me in order to stay in therapy. At some point, I realized that and at different times, those tentacles grew back again and I would have to peel them off yet again. The latest example I can give you is my reponse to when my T's wedding ring disappeared about a year ago. First my fantasies really ran wild. I thought, oh my gosh, he really could be mine. At some point, I realized that wasn't going to happen.

I researched the court records and didn't find any divorce papers. And, so I decided in my own mind that T's wife died a while ago. He had always talked about "my pediatrician". Things like that. He took a very active role in parenting, which would either make him the most amazing husband in the world or just someone who HAD to take an active parenting role.

He only has one child and I kind of knew she graduated from college a few years ago and who knows maybe got married or whatever. So I started to think that he had just decided that his daughter was raised and on her own and now it was time to let go and find someone for him.

Anyway, I had such pain over this beebs, such pain that I couldn't be the one to help him get over him pain. His poor wife died and he's been the sole provider and sole parent all these years. I was so sad that I couldn't be the one to be there to pick up the pieces.

At some point I realized it was that old need of mine surfacing it's ugly head again. That need to be needed. It's been such a hard and long road to accept my place in therapy as the one who needs. It's very hard to accept that I can maintain this relationship, (albeit, I'm paying for it) without being needed. In fact, the roles are quite the reverse, that I am the one who needs and T doesn't need me at all.

I have to keep working at that little part of therapy. But the more I accept it, the more that I can see what T can do for me, really do for me.

I don't know if that makes any sense at all to you or resonates in any way. I'm just wondering if that need of yours was somehow getting in the way of your therapy. T was consistent in that he responded the same way every time, that he was taking care of his own countertransference.

You have to take a look at it from the point of view of, "what if T IS being honest with me?" "What if he really is taking care of his own countertransference?" "Where would that lead me?"

If this doesn't relate at all or triggers you in any way, I'm so sorry. I just know how stuck you are with all this and thought it might be helpful.

Liese

It's helpful to have many perspectives, Liese. I appreciate it. You sound just like my T. he was always on about that- me needing to be needed, and not being able to accept being in a position of need. The thing is...I found a way to be "needed." That I could point out to him where he was screwing up, and it might actually help him with me, and with even his practice, perhaps. My insight into things...might be "needed" by him. So I tried to have insight. If I could just be honest enough, he might "get it" and it would help him. And he *told* me over and over again, that he needed me to show him how he could effectively guide me. So I thought I was doing right by telling him. The thing is maybe you are right...maybe T had no counter-transference at all, and it was all under control, and he was *perfectly happy* as he said he was, working with me, and that I was always welcome. and I just *couldn't* deal with that.

Beebs,

Whenever my T is insensitive to me and I know everyone on the forum thinks he's one of the most insensitive T's around, I ALWAYS think he's trying to teach me something. And I come up with all kinds of things he's trying to teach me. He's trying to teach me about boundaries. Whatever. And he keeps insisting that he's not trying to teach me some hidden message, that I need to take what he is saying at face value. And for 3 1/2 years now, this is the dance we have been doing. Finally, last week, I said to myself, Oh, what IF I took T at face value? What would that mean? Well, that would mean that he was REALLY insensitive to me. And it caused me to look differently at my ENTIRE life. All the insensitivity I've excused not just from T (the least of it) but from my H, my brother, my mother, my sister, my father, my friends. All things I blow off time and time again, because well, he didn't mean it or she didn't mean it that way, etc. etc. or it must be my fault. I must have deserved it.

And, you know what? That rocked my world. It changed completely everything I thought about the world and who I was and what my life meant.

Thinking that he was always trying to teach me something was my way I guess of dealing with the pain, all the pain I've suffered over the years and some of which I brought on myself, tolerating insensitivity.

I couldn't see it until I was ready to see it, to feel the pain.

So, I'm not saying this is what's going on with you. And, I'm not saying T didn't have any countertransference at all. But it's not your job to help him or help his practice. Maybe that's your way of dealing with his insensitivity, if that makes sense. Like, I thought my T was teaching me something. Maybe instead of saying, ouch that hurt, why did you do that, don't do that again, you're trying to fix him so he won't hurt you anymore.

I don't know beebs, just taking a shot in the dark, trying to give you another way at looking at things. Sometimes in therapy you get in a loop and it's hard to get out of it. Well, I've gotten in loops that are hard to get out of, I should say.

Hope you start to feel better soon. Love that you contacted the equine T.

HUGS,

Liese

I don't think the eq T/therapist will be getting back to me. You see, I was very honest with him, (my rant above condensed into three short sentences) I didn't want another T who isn't willing to work with someone as ambivalent about therapy as I feel right now. I was pretty honest. It's been two days since I emailed him. I know, I know- who knows he might be on vac...but.

quote:

And- I'm pretty sure I need to pretend a simplicity that I do not possess, in order for any other therapist to be able to have any kind of connective feeling towards me.

Beebs, no (lovingly) - this is wrong. You just need a therapist - in person - who is really smart, secure and has their act together. And then all the complicated stuff will just melt away, I promise you. Because you won't even NEED to resort to the complicated stuff. If your most simply, basic needs were getting met at face value when you presented them - like the need for regular sessions - then you wouldn't need to run around in circles trying to figure out transference/countertransference/transference/countertransference. All of that stuff would just calm right down.

Please take this as coming from a highly skilled entangler.

xxxJ

Really?

Beebs, Jones is exactly right. With the right T, all the complicated stuff won't be complicated anymore. I wish I could FedEx my T to you...

quote:

Of course he couldn't deal with it...show me a therapist who could deal with a client pointing out their countertransferences to them, in order to get their needs met?

I could show you my current T, Beebs. He is well aware of the countertransference and he simply accepts it. He is not afraid of it or to acknowledge it. He says that Ts are not exempt from the feelings in the room. That in any long term relationship there is lots of transference flying both ways AND there are also VERY REAL feelings in the room as well. A good T is aware of where his vulnerabilities lie and hopefully has addressed them in his own therapy. I know my T has had years of analysis and he is pretty well aware of his areas where any C\T can be triggered.

And what Jones said is very very true Beebs. I have said in the past and say again now... when you have the right T, a good well-trained T who is not afraid of participating in the therapeutic relationship and who can trust the process, well then it gets a whole heckuva lot easier to do therapy. And you can learn so much from a good T about yourself and relationships and patterns. The other angsty stuff about being accepted and being allowed to have needs... well that all just sort of fades to the background of the therapy.

All that complicated stuff of trying to figure out if things are okay in the relationship just go away and you can get down to the real issues.

I'm sorry you have not heard yet from eq T. Maybe he is on vacation or is terrible with email. No one could be in worse shape than I was when I found myself at my T's doorstep, so battered, bruised and bleeding. I told him I would make him hate me too and he would be sorry to take me on and he would find out why my oldT had to get rid of me. I was too much trouble and too wounded to ever fix. He smiled at me and said he just didn't see it that way.

And then when I struggled with the whole having to do it all over again with him. Feeling like it was all a do-over and that I was asking him to wear oldT's old clothing he just thought for a moment and said... well maybe I'm a master tailor and I will take those old clothes and make a beautiful suit from them. I thought that was one of the most amazing things he said to me. And he is a master tailor and we are making new clothes. We are doing okay.

I guess I just want to reassure you that you can do this over again and do it the way it should have been done in the first place. That it's possible to find another T who will help you to heal if you are willing to try.

Keep contacting T's and be very choosy in finding the one that best suits your needs.

Hugs
TN

Thanks Jones, Kashley, and TN. I appreciate your thoughts and insight.

I just got an email from the eq T I contacted, just a short reply to say sorry he is full.

Guys, I just really appreciate this, but I really do not think therapy is for me. I don't think I'm going to find the answers I'm looking for there. Ultimately it really comes down to me doing this for myself. I just have to find a way out of the mess I'm in myself somehow, I think. I can't stand living in the illusion that another person, and in particular, a very busy therapist- will ever be able to give me the level of support and instruction and guidance I would need. CAn another person create motivation? My T was..I really think he was it for me.

Love you, though,

BB

I'm sorry that the Eq T was full.

quote:

CAn another person create motivation?

I don't think it's about creating motivation as it's more about finding it. To me, it's kind of like finding the right fuel to get yourself going.

You know yourself better than anyone else, Beebs, so I totally respect any decision you decide to make. But I wonder if the fact that the Eq T was full was some sort of confirmation for you that therapy just won't work? I could be totally wrong here, but I just want to gently push you to try and get in contact with a few other Ts. Maybe make a deal with yourself that you will at least go to one session with a promising T, just to see what it's like. No commitments, nothing keeping you from leaving after the first session. But just to see.

BB, tell me if I'm wrong, but the biggest things that you want and need are someone who can meet your needs (like weekly sessions), to accept and validate ALL of your feelings, to be non-judgmental, to be caring and empathic, to be predictable (in a good way), and to provide you with a sense of safety. Those ARE NOT outside the realm of possibility to find in a T, Beebs. There are plenty of Ts out there who have those qualities, but they are sometimes hard to find. But they exist and I want so desperately for you to experience that because it's something you need and deserve. If you have those basic things in a T, the rest will eventually fall into place (e.g. all the complicated stuff). No one should have to figure everything out on their own, nor should you be expected to.

((((Beebs))))

quote:

Ultimately it really comes down to me doing this for myself. I just have to find a way out of the mess I'm in myself somehow

Beebs... sorry about the eqT being full. This is not a "sign" that therapy is not for you, however. I do respect your feelings about therapy but I have to point out something about what you wrote and I quoted above....

No matter how hard you work and how good you are you cannot heal this by yourself. Many of your wounds are interpersonal/relational wounds and hurts and you will need to heal them in relationship with someone who has their own healthy attachment status (or i.e., has already dealt their ther own shit)... preferably a good, knowledgeable, skilled and experienced T.

What makes the process of therapy so unique is that you experience a relationship LIVE while it's happening and you can disect, study, discuss, analyze and come to understand the dynamics of what makes a relationship work, how you react in relationships, what patterns you exhibit in relationship and then how to change those patterns or at least be able to recognize the destructive ones so you can avoid them (or the people who cause these reactions or behaviors in you that cause you harm).

So Beebs... please do not give up on therapy. You deserve to have a good caring T and to recover from what you suffered both as a child and as a patient with your last T.

Hugs,
TN

Thanks Kashley. Actually, I just freaked out when I got that message, and for some reason this time, it hit me...it triggered the same pain of my T saying, (without saying it) "I can't really help you- and I don't really like the sound of you- you are on your own." So I was like fuck therapy.

But, I've had this card hanging around my house for about a year now, that a friend gave me awhile back. She noticed that I seemed worse than usual, as I don't see her very often at all. Something something S.R.T., it was. I think shrinklady even has something about it. It seems like...you learn to regulate yourself soemhow or other, and...I was thinking that...even though I don't have some buttload of trauma to deal with and this is trauma therapy...I still relate to the idea of finding myself in some helpless spiral and just plonked down at the bottom of a hole over and over again until basically, I've pretty much given up and am mostly, numb and hopeless. And...this a female therapist. I wouldn't have to deal with agony of attachment pain/negative transference/abandonment thingy that comes with male therapist probably- she could just teach me how to "self-regulate" ..yeah? I kinda like that idea. Hmmm I get the feeling it might not be as simple as I think it sounds...but...it just doesn't seem as philosophically impossible and goal-less as the therapy I was in. It sounds almost like learning some emotional skills.

Get this. In utter desperation...I just *called* her. Left a message. Unheard of for me. Email is my thang.

It's not gonna hit me so hard if she says sorry, full and I don't like the sound of you, because I expect that anyway from a woman in a position of authority/knowing more than I do- anyway, so if she's nice, then I will just be pleasantly surprised.

there is something about it. I feel less "unfaithful" to my T going to a woman therapist whose modality is totally different than his. It even doesn't stamp out all possibility uin my mind of returning to him at some point if... just if. SO. More do-able. I need to learn how to find my way out of this place I get into continually. Who knows it might work. arg. I can't get my hopes up. I just really can't.

Oh, TN...sorry, I crossposted with you- thank you too. That last message is for you, too, thanks, TN.

What you both said makes a lot of sense. I'm just really really struggling, and you know- I'm surprised. I honestly thought that I would feel better after breaking from my T.

BB

Sorry Beebs....not many words right now but...((BB))

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
Thanks Jones, Kashley, and TN. I appreciate your thoughts and insight.

I just got an email from the eq T I contacted, just a short reply to say sorry he is full.

Guys, I just really appreciate this, but I really do not think therapy is for me. I don't think I'm going to find the answers I'm looking for there. Ultimately it really comes down to me doing this for myself. I just have to find a way out of the mess I'm in myself somehow, I think. I can't stand living in the illusion that another person, and in particular, a very busy therapist- will ever be able to give me the level of support and instruction and guidance I would need. CAn another person create motivation? My T was..I really think he was it for me.

Love you, though,

BB

Beebs,

I think you are wise to realize that you cannot get from a T what you could get from yourself. However, I do think the right T can help you help yourself. The right T can help you learn to nurture and love yourself.

Can another person creative motivation? No, I think motivation has to come from within...but the right T can help you find that part of you that is motivated. The right T can help you re-ignite the fire within you that will propel you forward.

It makes complete sense why the Eq T's message would trigger that kind of response but I am SO proud of you for calling this other T anyway! I can see how maybe going to a female therapist for even just a little while can help quell any comparisons that will go on (although I'm sure there will be plenty, which is completely natural). I may have mentioned this before, but I know that my therapy would be completely different if I had a male T. There would be A LOT of transference stuff going on...I know that for sure. And who knows, maybe that's eventually what needs to happen, but I know that I could not have dealt with it if that was my first therapy experience. I think it has been very helpful to have female Ts.

I really hope that this other T calls you back soon...hugs and prayers for you, Beebs.

Beebs,

I agree with what Kashley said. I think it is great that you reached out. (((hugs)))

Thanks you Faith for you support of me, and hugs. It's nice to see you again!

LG:

quote:

I do think the right T can help you help yourself. The right T can help you learn to nurture and love yourself.

Can another person creative motivation? No, I think motivation has to come from within...but the right T can help you find that part of you that is motivated. The right T can help you re-ignite the fire within you that will propel you forward.

Wow thanks, LG, I really like that it simplifyins it somehow for me.

Kashley thanks for continuing to nudge me, even though I'm so resistant to the idea, and validating the idea of a female T. For some reason I've thought that only a male T could help me, but I just decided to call her.

and STRMS thanks for the support on reaching out.

As it turns out I did some stupid stuff last night, and woke up in a very bad place this morning. I actually had to call my H to come home from work, and he was very gentle and kind to me, even though there is no way I deserve it since it was entirely my fault. Just when he got here, the T I told you about called me. She was very nice, calm, and didn't make a big deal out of anything. She told me that therapy isn't really such a big deal, all I do is come in, see her and we talk a bit and she'll ask me a few questions, and we can just see if it's a good fit. She was nice, matter-of-fact and kept enough distance on the call without being too impersonal and cold. which really helped me, actually I felt clamer and better right away after talking to her. ! Seh asked if I could come in in a really short time, and I kinda avoided but decided to go ahead , what can it hurt. Her rates are extremely reasonable, too, so that it will not such a huge sacrifice to pay, should it work out.

I'm scared that I have hope. I'm scared that I put too much faith in this idea, and will really crash when it is not the answer to all my problems as I know it cannot be, but which emotionally, I do tend to believe. So I'm trying to just not make too big a deal of it, recognize that therapy isnot going to solve all my problems but it may point me in the right direction. I hope and pray that I do not become helpless with her as I became with my T, but that I retain some ability to speak normally. I hope I don't make this too important, (all-important) in my mind. I just want a way to feel a bit better and find my feet, and I have to keep reminding myself that this person will not be able to "fix" me.

I'm still really missing my T, and wishing that it would have worked. Talking to her for 5 minutes and her a complete stranger was so..easy and natural. It didn't feel weird or scary of like there were a million hidden meaning in every word. It was nice and straightforward, and I was pretty direct, I think, although I think I avoided her question about my diagnoses. She said that what she does is try to find ways to regulate the nervous system, that a lot of the problems start there and not in the emotions as much as people think.

I'll give this a try, and if I get entangled and addicted, I hope that I will have learned my lesson enough to pull away before it gets too bad.

Thank you so much, dear friends.

Love,

BB

((((BB))))

Glad you reached out to someone and she was nice. Was thinking about you today and hoping you were okay.

Liese

BB - I hope this goes well for you. I am glad you are giving this woman a try.

Super glad for you that the female T called back and really proud of you again for diving in even though so much of you is screaming not to. Really brave. I hope and pray that things go well with this T. ((((hugs))))