Why does it matter if T cares?

incognitoMember

I am so tired of obsessing about what T thinks of me. We've only worked on the puzzle for one session and then the next one he took the puzzle out but I didn't work on it and I haven't seen it since. I wish I could ask him to bring it out but I don't.

I'm stuck in my doubt about whether T likes me or cares for me or more accurately the feeling that he wishes I would stop talking to him. It doesn't matter what he does I still feel that way. Last week when I was really angry at the end of my second session I emailed him and asked him for another session that week he offered me a session. He answers my emails, he shakes my hand, he listens to me complain about him and what he does. Why do I still feel like he hates me and is just good at hiding it?

We've talked about it. I understand that the therapeutic relationship is not like others and so I don't get the feedback I usually get from other people because I'm not funny or entertaining or helpful to T. I spend all my time complaining or in pain or silent and crying and generally being unlikeable. I realize I feel unworthy. On monday we talked about that feeling of unworthiness that permeates my life. While there have been moments where I feel like he cares about me he pointed out that my default position is I'm unworthy. My T told me that it would be very hard (I heard impossible) to change that default belief but there are moments when it eases. I'm frustrated that I've worked so hard in therapy and confronting and challenging myself painfully and I'm not going to be able to change my basic belief anyway. I just got very quiet and cried at that point in the session. T asked me if the fact that sometimes I felt he cared helped me feel like my feeling of unworthiness wasn't so intractable. It didn't help which of course adds to my sense that I'm a failure because I never seem to have the reaction that T expects.

The rest of my session passed in a haze and I told T that recognizing that it was my basic belief that he didn't care about me left me with nothing to say. He asked why. I told him when I thought there was something he was doing or wasn't doing was why I felt that way then it worth talking about but if it is me then it doesn't matter what I ask T to try if it won't change my basic belief. I've started shaking his hand at the end of sessions, I've tried playing games, doing a puzzle, talking about the reasons I don't think he caress. I sent him emails, called in crisis, asked for extra sessions, seen him twice a week for over a year. Even though he has been predominantly responsive and there for me I still don't feel it. There is no point is asking him to sit me or touch my shoulder or hold my hand because I don't believe it will make a lasting difference. Shaking hands didn't. When I left his office I wouldn't shake his hand. I left quickly without making eye contact because it just seems like an empty gesture now.

I've been reading TN's thread and realizing how similar my feelings are to hers only I didn't have a former therapist that gave me a sense of being cared about. Maybe I'm really not capable of feeling cared about. I can't seem to accept that and quit talking about it. I don't want to talk about the painful things I"m ashamed of because whenever I do the feeling he doesn't like me overwhelms me and derails the conversation anyway.

I'm not sure how to move through this block.

11/29/119:54 PM

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blackbirdMember

idk, incog...I think the answer may be...to have some hot soup.

much love,

BB

11/29/1110:06 PM

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mayoMember

Incognito,
He is loving you in the T way... and that means consistancy, atunement, and compassion.
Mayo

...big hugs to you!

11/30/113:51 AM

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lieseMember

((((((HEY INCOGNITO)))))

My T has also said that it will be hard to change my brain BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE. So as long as he has hope and optimism and will continue to work with me, I will continue to try only because where I am now (if I stopped) and where I was before are both two places I can't stay in. I know how frustrating it feels.

IMHO, the good news is that you are starting to stand back from the whole process recognize what it is that what you are doing and how you feel worthless, etc., and that it may in fact be coming from you and not from your T. That is a powerful realization because that means, IMO, that you now how the opportunity to develop how you feel about yourself independent of how other people feel about you. It sucks because you're probably used to fending off those worthless feelings by feeling cared about by the people around you. True independence will come when you can do it for yourself.

I don't think it's all lost, Incognito, it just depends on how you look at it. Maybe when we stop looking for their care, ironically that's when we really start to feel it?

I spend quite a bit of time in those awful, ugly, muddy waters of worthlessness often and know it's not a great place to be. It's all about developing positive emotions and spending more time there and then even more time there until they are predominant. And you can do this through your relationship with your T. Maybe just not in the way you think?

xoxoxo

Love,

Liese

11/30/114:45 AM

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yakusokuMember

((((incognito))))

I hear you. I wish I could help. I often get to the place where I know rather than feel that T cares for me. And, it is important. Intellectually, I can accept that he has always demonstrated himself to be a kind, caring person who has warm feelings toward me, that he has said it to me and shows it consistently. However, on a feeling level, I am constantly besieged by a sense of fundamental wrongness with myself that means "that isn't something I get to have," so even if he he feels that way, it's almost as if I'm too numb or broken to receive it. I find myself, though, worrying less and less about whether he cares, because I just know that he does. So, there are less projections, less anxiety, etc. And that is progress. So, I think, maybe...someday, I'll be able to know his care on a feeling level. It's a lot of progress for me to make, to not be worried about it. It took over a year, but now it is intermittent worry instead of constant worry.

Yesterday, I sent T a text about some burdensome feelings and said I knew how he would reply to that and God bless him for it. And I did know that he would say he never ever feels burdened by it, that he is so blessed by my sharing with him, every time. I got a text back when I was resting later and as soon as I heard T's text time, I knew it would be a smiley face. And I thought, that is nice. Twice today, I was able to expect a positive response from my T. One that he didn't need to say, because I told him I knew it already. And the other, knowing that my feeling blessed by his positive regard would make him happy. It doesn't happen often, but just the idea that I might expect kindness from him...that's a REALLY new thing for me in any relationship.

So, while I know it's a long road and those places are few and far between, I still see it as a kind of progress. It's one I hope you can experience more and more, punctuating these voids of the meaninglessness of trying to be cared about.

(((more hugs)))

11/30/119:24 AM

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sadlyMember

quote:
just the idea that I might expect kindness from him...that's a REALLY new thing for me in any relationship.

That is big, Yaku.

I think I feel that occasionally for my sweet P.

hugs to you incognito, it is a hard place you are in, but you are aware of a lot of what is going on and thank you for sharing the difficulty you are experiencing, so that we can read it and gain insight ourselves.

I have never been able to take care for granted. A lot of my process in therapy is about me learning that my therapist will care for me and does care for me, which is utterly unexpected. But some days, like today, I feel it. Then, darn it, it goes again. Elusive but worth all the pain and struggle if that one day, will stay longer or even permanently.

11/30/114:02 PM

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incognitoMember

((BB)) I have never gotten the desire for hot soup, chocolate I get. I wish there was an answer.

((DF)), thanks for this. It is interesting to hear how you explore this with your T's. With me it tends to come up over something I'm angry about. Like I think you didn't answer because you didn't want to talk to me or I'm talking about something and then I realize it is another version of you don't like me/care for me. T usually responds with an explanation of what was going on for him when I felt like he didn't like me. Then I shut down. You are much braver than me because even though T asks me what I'm thinking of I can't answer. I feel like I should say something unless it makes sense or I can argue it so I don't tell him random thoughts that come up or feelings that don't make sense.

((Mayo)), I guess you are right and it doesn't feel like enough.

((Liese)) I'm impressed that you are so clear that stopping here would be worse than trying more. I'm afraid things will get worse and I won't be able to handle it. You are right I depend a lot on other people's opinion of me, not everybody but the people who are important to me.

((Yaku)) I'm glad you can see the progress in learning to accept and expect care from your T. It sounds wonderful to me.

((Sadly)) It is nice to hear from you. I'm glad you can feel T's care sometimes. You have done so much work with your T it must be very gratifying see the benefit of your hard work.

I had to cancel my session tonight because of a family obligation. I am going to see him on Friday instead. Even though I hate going and regularly consider quitting I still hate postponing a session.

11/30/119:55 PM

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True NorthCo-moderator

quote:
It doesn't matter what he does I still feel that way. Last week when I was really angry at the end of my second session I emailed him and asked him for another session that week he offered me a session. He answers my emails, he shakes my hand, he listens to me complain about him and what he does. Why do I still feel like he hates me and is just good at hiding it?

Hi incognito... I highlight the above because it is much the same way I feel about my T, especially over the past two weeks. I felt so rejected by him and that I was too horrible for him to even come close to and his response about touch was so scary that I could not bear trying to allow him emotionally close to me. I basically rejected him back. I think that the pain of even considering that he could care for me and then the rejection caused so much pain that I just sort of ejected him from my mind and heart. It didn't help that I couldn't "see" him over the past 4 sessions, just a blurry blob who was sitting across from me but had no facial features.

When I try to explain this to my T he tells me that because of what happened I abandoned us before I could be the abandoned one. He tells me that I'm just waiting for him to fail me or abandon me and I'm trying my darndest to make it happen but he won't let it happen. He said something to me today that was pretty insightful. He asked me if whenever I made a mistake when I was younger if it was catastrophized. I said "definitely, the good things I did were never mentioned or recognized but the bad stuff was a major catastrophe". He nodded sagely and said "I think you are allowing me to enter into the same experience you would have as a child." Meaning that I took the one small thing he did that failed me and made me feel rejected and turned it into a relationship ender and I don't recognize all the very good things he does to meet the needs I express to him. And so he now knows how I felt as a child and he understands.

He is right. On some level I know that he does so much for me and never makes me feel that my needs are overwhelming, abnormal or inappropriate. He closes the blinds, he answers every email and every phone call, he is ALWAYS there for me, he allows me to keep my blanket there, he displays my gifts and accepts them graciously, he set up that meeting with oldT, he gives me 2 appts per week...he does so much that goes unrecognized because I have never learned how to take in and FEEL the good stuff, only the bad stuff.

And in answer to your question about why does it matter if T cares? Well, most likely because he is your attachment figure and his care and approval feels like life and death. It also matters because if he is invested in you, that means he cares and if he cares he is less likely to hurt you.... because hurting you would be hurting himself. So you are actually "safer" if you can allow yourself to feel and accept the attachment to him and accept his investment in you, to let it happen naturally without trying to avoid/defend against it.

Hope this helps in some way.

Hugs
TN

12/1/117:34 PM

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blackbirdMember

I'm so sorry incognito if my soup comment was insensitive. I guess I was thinking...something comforting.

I just hope so much that you will be able to get past this place of not being able to believe in T's care. I guess it is really important to believe they care, for some reason I have never quite understood. For me it feels like it is simply *impossible* to believe that Cowboy- or my last T, for that matter- could have ever had any kind of real care for me at all. I just simply do not believe it, because how can someone be so impassive, then. It's not that I won't- it's that I don't. Because I can't believe that if T has no affectionate feelings for me- that any feelings of professional care, really matter that much to my heart, to make such a big difference that I would begin to heal from it.

I am sincerely not sure if any therapist has even a fraction of what I need. But I'm going out of curiosity at this point, and desperation to overcome apathy- as desire and hope that there is some answer to the meaninglessness of feeling nothing. I like therapy when I can cry, when I can feel something. I miss that. Does T care? I really can't think so, either. But- I think yours does. hah. crazy I guess, I can see that your does, but not mine.

What does your T say about all these feelings? I am wondering if you can write down his very specific response, (only if you are comfortable) what his words are- specifically- as close as you can remember? It may help to just put it down, and see it in print, and get some response on how it feels or seems to others?

Love to you,

Beebs

12/1/118:50 PM

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incognitoMember

(((BB))) your soup comment wasn't insensitive. I knew you were suggesting something comforting but for me I was just saying I prefer chocolate when I'm comfort eating. darn tone can never be conveyed properly when written.

I hope I can get past this place too or reach a place where it isn't important. It is hard to know which words you mean. My T is very careful to correct my language. So if I say I don't think you care about me he might say " sometimes you feel like I care for you so you mean you don't feel like I care for you all the time" or he has said you are afraid I don't care for you. Sometimes I feel like he is nit-picking my language and avoiding the issue of how I feel. Other times I think he is trying to remind me that I don't always feel the same way as I do right now when I feel terrible.

((TN)) Thanks for your comments. I am always extrapolating small things as harbingers of doom in the future. I'm going to my session tomorrow afternoon and I am feeling remarkably flat and disinterested. I am sure by tomorrow I'll be anxious. It is hard to feel safe with T. I hope your session today helped.

12/1/119:53 PM

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blackbirdMember

quote:
Sometimes I feel like he is nit-picking my language and avoiding the issue of how I feel. Other times I think he is trying to remind me that I don't always feel the same way as I do right now when I feel terrible.

Oh, from my perspective, it seems really clear that he is trying to correct your internal interpretation that he doesn't care, by reminding you that there are times when you can feel his care, so that your current feelings of his not caring are shown to be false to you. I think he is trying to remind you of the times when you felt good and safe with him, not just trying to nit-pick the way you speak..it's because what you say can become internalized so he wants to undo the message- "he doesn't care" by correcting. I think.

I'm sorry about, not conveying what I meant too well- I guess I was just trying to empathise with your feeling of disbelief in T's caring, by explaining my own reactions/beliefs to my own T's "caring" while at the same time saying that I hope you (and I) can get past it, and begin to let some of that care in, or, in my case, stop thinking that the type of care that T offers is worthless. yarg- it's hard to explain.