Ugggh, BB. I would go to the exact same place you are with that statement and feel so invalidated. I hope you are able to be clear with T about how that sort of thing makes you feel. I winced just reading it! ((((((BB))))))

He may have meant it to be encouraging, that he sees a lot of health in you...but jeez these Ts can sometimes fall flat on their faces.

I seriously doubt it...but I can see why you would feel that way, because that's how I think my T sees me. But, you probably see my T differently too.

(((bb))

I can't type much this morning but I can totally understand why this would feel bad. He said it in a weird way. At the same time, it is a way of saying "you aren't as bad as you think." To me, that means he thinks well of you. Not creepy. And being avoidant, resistant... well, I'm all those things... I'm guessing you don't think I'm creepy or bad... It's ok to be those things. In time, we work through it. I'd agree with this T... I think he thinks much better of you than you think of you or think he thinks of you. And I also understand why his words feel bad. He worded them like in a backwards-ish way, like your thinking is wrong and really I don't think his point was how your thinking was wrong, but how you are a better person than you think, and yes, even when you are avoidant and resistant. This would have so easily hit a sore spot for me too - in feeling like you have been asking for support and then he says this, trying to say you are ok and good, and instead it seems like he's saying you should be able to go without support. Well, that's not true either. (Would he be trying to help your H be a better H to you if he thought you didn't deserve support?) And ugh, I wish he was more sensitive to what you need, and he may be. I dunno. My head is in a weird place so none of this may even make sense, let alone be helpful. please disregard if I'm totally missing the mark on any of this.
You deserve support and needing support isn't a reflection of how good or bad we are.

shame is crummy. so sorry you are battling it.

Dear Beebs,

Big hug. I just want to say one thing here.... Which is that you might be surprised at what you are able to remember if you give yourself permission to remember. Just a simple little note of permission to the mind.

Nother big hug.

quote:

And I think that too.

If you're sleuthing out projection, a statement like this is always a big clue. Assuming T thinks like we do is usually a projection...not always...but usually. I find that my T, despite agreeing with me on several things, really does not tend to think like I do about any of the things I get myself worked up about.

quote:

"I think that you think you are a lot more messed up than you really are."

Beebs,
I totally understand why you got upset by this, especially as you've explained your feelings, but I heard it completely differently. Probably because my T once said something very similar to me (before we even worked together individually). I think your T was gently trying to tell you that your opinion of yourself is skewed and distorted, not because you're lying or trying to get attention or any other negative reason, but because you were not cherished and affirmed the way you should have been and so you undervalue yourself. You do not see your own strengths and amazing qualities (may I say they're crystal clear to those of us on the forum? ) That you underestimate your ability and strength to heal. I honestly think he meant it as an encouragement.

I went to see my T alone when I was only doing marital therapy with him and was discussing some of my feelings surrounding the marriage and at one point he looked at me and said in a very skeptical tone "AG, it sounds as if you think you're crazy." I kind of rocked back and said, well yeah I worry about that. He spent the next year and a half telling me I was healthier and more stable than I knew. There was one session when he said something I've carried with me ever since, which was that he refused to believe I was incapable of a close, intimate relationship and I was no more likely to fall apart than he was.

I believe when a T says something like this, it's in order to give us a more accurate reflection of ourselves instead of the often darkly distorted reflections we received as children.

AG

Beebs, I am sending ya some love... I'm fighting the same situation right now. My T is sweet and wonderful and says all the right things (many of which piss me off) but I have a hard time believing the good things she says about me - that I'm not as messed up as I think I am, that I'm more together than I think I am, that I'm much more capable than I think I am, and so on... I see myself as worthless and defective - my skewed view of myself. She sees the opposite, I just don't believe her, yet.

I cried for a good ten minutes when she said she had faith in my ability to function fully in life, cause I don't have that faith in myself yet.

AG... Wow. Your words ring so true and clear. Thank you for stating so eloquently...

quote:

I believe when a T says something like this, it's in order to give us a more accurate reflection of ourselves instead of the often darkly distorted reflections we received as children.

This is so freaking hard to let in. At least I know I'm not alone - thanks for keeping me company Beebs!

BB - really, please do not beat yourself up for how you are reading/reacting to his comment. Seriously, I would feel the same exact way. It probably ISN'T what your T meant or intended from it...but I think your reaction is understandable, or at least *I* understand it.

Hey Beebs,

Please don't feel at all bad for a long post. I think that the more you write, the more you can work out - so it's good. Well, the main thing I want to say involves how your T and SD work. And, you know I'm a Christian, so I'm only noting differences between the two and not inserting opinions about religion.

As Christians and as with most other religions, there is a fundamental "problem" with humans, and we look to God (or whomever) to find ways out of this problem. I believe the main difference between the way your T and SD look at things is that your SD accepts that there may well be (and probably is) a certain element of brokenness, and turning to God is a way to seek healing from that brokenness. This kind of belief originates with the thinking that we are fundamentally broken, and we need God to try and put ourselves back together again.

Now, I see your T as looking at this as a personal empowerment type of thing, where it's only your thoughts that make you believe you are broken rather than *actually* being broken (which is obviously what you're already struggling with your T saying..sorry if I'm repetitive). I'm not necessarily saying that one view is religious and the other isn't, especially since I'm sure your T would agree that no human is a perfect being. But I think that, while your SD is helping you heal yourself, he is also helping you grow closer to God, and this inevitably entails accepting every crack and imperfection in us so that we can look to God to be healed. On the other hand, your T may be wanting you to look more to *yourself* to be healed. I'm not saying at all that he's discounting religion, but it's naturally not going to be quite as much at the forefront as it would be for your SD.

Of course, I've really only addressed a tiny little bit of what you said earlier...sorry, Beebs. I hope I didn't offend you with any of that. (((BB)))

Awww Beebs, sorry things feel so yucky. It sounds like T has said some things that you need clarification on. They are really bothering you and it doesn't sound like you can continue on in the relationship until things are settled in your mind, transference or not, right?

My T does the normal thing too. Actually, I just said to him on Monday, how can I go back out into the world and pretend I'm normal. He said, well first of all, you are normal. It's just that you've been through some things, etc. He always goes out of this way to tell me I'm normal. At times, it has made me feel like he's pushing me out of therapy. Or at least saying, so why exactly are you here?

I just think it's wierd that your T would tell you that he's going to write a letter to your H and tell him how he can save a lot of money on counseling. What does that mean??? I can see why it really makes you question if he wants to work with you or not. It sounds like these things need to be cleared up.

xoxoxox

(((((HUGS))))))

Liese

Beebs,

I know that feeling, that you will die. I get that too and I don't think it's irrational. I think it has something to do with connecting to other people and "FEELING" important. My T makes me feel important to him in a way that I'm not sure anyone in my life ever has. Sometimes IRL I just feel like a vacant shell, just there to make everyone happy, fulfill everyone else's needs. I think that if as children, we felt important, we would feel important IRL now and be able to assert ourselves. There is something from T that I don't get anywhere else. Maybe that's true for you too. And, I really don't feel like I'm being manipulative when I say that if I don't get that, if I don't learn how to get that, I might as well be dead, because that's how I feel inside. Good luck. I hope you are able to talk to T about it. Are you seeing him weekly now? Every other week? When do you see him next?

Maybe he is intentionally misattuned, trying to help you get attuned to yourself???? You know me, always reading into things and not taking things at face value.

How does your H rope you into answering for him?

Can you ask T if he gets you? If he thinks he can help you? Or if you need to see another T with different expertise?

I've asked my T that because I have very often felt like people don't get me or have any idea what to do with me. T is very confident that he can help me and that helps me to believe that he understands me very well even when I don't feel attuned. It also gives me hope. It does a lot of things for me.

You're going to have to be tough to get what???

Oh, BB, don't hate me...I am always trying to get H to make decisions for me if they have anything remotely to do with him. I won't make a decision for myself if I think it has an affect on another person. So, anything besides what I eat for lunch is up in the air...unless we are running out of what I want to eat and I'm afraid someone else wanted it...then that is up in the air too!

You sound about the same as me, Beebs. Me and my H are like that too. It's so frustrating and feels like there's no way any progress can be made, but there has to be!! We long for it, or we wouldn't be in therapy trying to make a change in our lives. I am sure we can get there...somehow.

Hugs, BB!
MTF

Oh Beebs, that conversation sounds dreadful!!! And, so, what happens when he does join you in therapy? I think I remember you kind of stay out of view and your H and your T have the session? Does your H talk much to T?

Beebs,

You've given me an analogy I can really sink my teeth into. I think both of your Ts are saying the same thing but from one (your SD) you're hearing it as a positive, since he is acknowledging that things really are more difficult for you (which I agree with, more later) while your T is telling you you're not damaged, which you're hearing as "why aren't you doing better?" I do want to state the disclaimer Beebs that much of what I'm going to say grows out of my own healing experience and so may not be true for you. But as usual, I'll put it out there to see if it helps.

You used the analogy of being without arms when everyone else had them and how difficult that would make things. But I think your T (and even possilbly your SD) see it more as someone who had invisible shackles placed on their wrists as soon as they were born which made it impossible to use their arms. I know it's a small distinction but here's the difference. A person without arms is fundamentally deformed, markedly different from anyone. There is something intrinsically wrong with them so to speak. I think that is how you see yourself. And you need your T to recognize this, so he can understand how difficult it really is for you. (May I interject right here, that I do believe it is very difficult for you, not because you are lazy, dishonest, damaged or anything like that, but that you experienced deprivations that have literally made it harder for you to function. I don't want you hearing any judgement from me, please let me know if you do, because I think you're wonderful just as you are.)

But if you're really a person whose arms have been shackled their whole life with invisible chains, then you face the same problems as a person with no arms, BUT your problem isn't visible to anyone else so it makes no sense that you're struggling. But it also means that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with you, you are not deformed. You are having normal reactions to abnormal circumstances. If you put invisible shackles on any human being, they would be facing the same types of problems. Maybe not exactly the same ones you are, as they might have different strengths and compensate in a different way for the non-use of their arms, but they would also face the horrible uphill struggle to survive without arms.

So the purpose of therapy is to unlock those shackles and allow you to develop as someone who has always had two good arms but was never taught to or allowed to use them. You'll never quite react as well as someone who could always use their arms. When things get hard and you react automatically, you may act like the shackles are still there. They were invisible after all, so it's easy to forget you don't wear them anymore, and you have a lot of ingrained reflexes from when you wore them. But then you remember they're gone and suddenly you have so many more options because there isn't something wrong anymore.

Can you see that both understandings are helpful because with either scenario, you're pain and struggle can be heard (which is vitally important) but when you're missing your arms, there's no hope to change it. When you're wearing shackles, they can be removed, and you can go back and develop the skills with your arms you should have been taught. I think you're T is just trying to point out your shackles so that you will have hope about healing.

AG

AG - That's an amazingly good analogy. I wish I had a Wayne's World "We're not worthy"-esque emoticon to use here. Alas, I do not...

Thanks Yaku! If I may say so I felt kind of proud of this one as its actually an original instead of the usual passing on of my Ts words. Although I'm glad you can't find that emoticon as there's no lack of worthiness.

What you said brings back a really good memory of my T. He told me this great Rugby analogy once about therapy and it really clicked with me. When I told him how great it was, he broke out in a HUGE grin and said "you like that one? That was actually one of my own!" It was really hysterical. I thought of him when I read what you wrote, so thank you!

I think I may have read that rugby analogy story elsewhere on the forum before I joined...perhaps in the transference thread that drew me here. I think it's adorable when my T is obviously proud of something. An email I sent caused that in our last session and he kind of glowed a bit...so cute.

Beebs, is it possible that believing you are bad, and that others think you are bad, is a way to keep people away from you, so that you are safe from being hurt by them?

love,
Jones

Beebs,
I hate to throw this into the mix but could the other possibility be that if you get better you have to go away? I know this was a biggie for me and my work with my T didn't really take off until he told me I never have to leave. It was very confusing sometimes, I wasn't always sure what I was more scared of, leaving or staying. I'm sorry, I know this is really painful stuff to struggle through.

Aglet (This makes me feel like a really small pink animal with a cool striped shirt. )

((((((((((Beebs)))))))))) You've had so much awesome feedback, I don't have much to add...just wanted to give you a hug.

That was an awesome analogy, Aglet. Forgive me, but I just have to pass this on for Yaku (and you know it's all in fun I hope):

(pssst....Yaku....here's a link to the website where I found it: General Smileys)

SG

((((BB)))) Just wanted you to know that I'm reading and offer my support. I'm sorry that trying that exercise was so activating and made you feel the need for your T. Thinking of you.

Beebs I've been following this thread from lurkdom and often wanted to post something on it, I really feel for what you are going through and the mass of confusion that keeps taking you over.

Just wanted to comment on your last post about trying to go into feelings - and to say I really sympathize with how desperate you must be feeling that you're casting about looking for a way to sort yourself out on your own. I've tried many times to do the mindful thing, sitting with how I feel, trying to get in touch with whatever I'm feeling in any given moment, and I have to say something similar happens to me as you are describing. I've realized that I simply cannot go into how I feel by myself, I just start spinning in a real vortex of fear and shame and other unnameable feelings and it just totally freaks me out (I'm good at shutting down on feelings though, so usually I just come out of it freaked out but disconnected).

The way I see it is that unless you already have some sense of what psychspeak calls 'affect regulation' then it can be really counterproductive to just plunge into feelings on your own, and certainly without some kind of external support to turn to if they get overwhelming - without having some idea of what you're feeling and why and the ability to put them into some sort of context, they can really get out of hand. So I think your instinct to want T be there for you is right on - having a sympathetic/understanding or just plain caring other somehow makes the feelings manageable and even comprehensible - I'm sure this all comes under headings like 'containment' etc but in actuality, I suppose that's what's happening to you (and me) that unfamiliar and unknown, or plain suppressed/controlled feelings can spill out of our self imposed container and create havoc.

For me, it's vital to have that person there so now I consciously avoid going into feelings on my own and I suspect after what you experienced yesterday (hm or is that the day before now) you will probably think twice before trying that again.

Anyway just wanted to say that, to reach out, let you know that I totally sympathize and possibly even understand, a bit, what you went through.

I hope you can sort something out with seeing your T, and being able to speak more openly to him about what you need and want (((( Beebs ))))

LL

BB - thinking of you. I hope the email is a positive experience! ((((HUGS))))

Beebs,

Thinking of you.

Liese