Feeling a little more pissed off at him today over the comment that I mentioned he was an ass about ..... maybe I will have the courage to talk to him about it on Monday???? what if he rejects me????

what is the interesting thing about anger .???? If you acknowledge you aren't getting your needs met, you might get pissed off and try to get them met, right? That's if you acknowledge your needs aren't getting met ... I don't think i've been ackknowledging that ....

the T I left was famous for making comments, which of course led me to believe she was manipulating my emotions ..... like, she had said one time that she couldn't get anything out of me .... I didn't even realize she was trying to get something out of me .... and then when she doublebooked me .... afterwards she made the comment, well at least you are asserting yourself .... and i was sooo pissed off, like ... "WTF? I am in the most emotional pain I've ever been in in my life and you're happy I'm asserting myself?"

I do see that with my oldest daughter ... who is a doll ... and does very well in school but is a little shy and struggles a little socially ... i've tended to be a little overprotective with her ... and maybe unwittingly fostered a dependence on me instead of encouraging her to take social risks ... etc ... so as I've realized this and realized that she can't grow unless I force her to stand on her own two feet a little ... I've backed away a little from her ... made sure I was available ... but made sure there were times when I wasn't so she'd have to develop some self-reliance ..... and I do notice that she does get more pissed off now ... which I think is a good thing, because maybe it will motivate her to take those social risks ... and actually it has motivated her ... and she is getting her ego bruised here and there but learning also along the way ... I tell her she's awesome and lend an ear when she feels hurt ... but I've tried to back off ....

So my current T made a comment yesterday about that he likes that I'm asserting myself more after I told him about some situations over the weekend with hubby and the kids .... HMMMMMM ....

Liese thanks for sharing your session with us. I understand how you are trying to come up with a scenario to fit your Ts behavior... especially the behavior that does not please you or make sense to you. I used to do this all the time with oldT and I discovered over time that I gave him WAY too much credit for stuff that was just circumstancial and not really some well thought out plan of treatment for me. Be careful about attributing positive attributes to them and idealizing them. I know I did this with oldT and thought there was no harm. Toward the last year with him I truly knew he had many many flaws and did not know enough about some major areas of psychology... especially in the psychodynamic realm to understand why I reacted certain ways to certain things he did or said. He would instead just take offense and become defensive and detached towards me which then would freak me out and I would try to cling more closely to him and he would be uncomfortable with my clinginess and it was just a vicious cycle.

I have a feeling newT would not be disturbed at all to find me clinging to his ankles ....although I have absolutely no desire to do so at this point. I'm NOT getting to close to anyone at this point.

I guess you could ask your T about the motives behind some of his reactions and his behavior towards you. I tried this but didn't get too far as my T didn't understand himself very well.

As far as needs go... I was really bad about asking for what I needed. I worked on that really hard with oldT. I would ask for things but be so terrified he would deny me or get mad at me or reject me. He pretty much met my basic requests but it was always so inconsistent. Sometimes he was so reassuring and I would be ecstatic and felt that I was really progressing and other times he was not responsive. And then at the end he was denying me anything and just shutting the door on any need I had or anything I asked of him. I guess he just didn't care about me any more at that point and just wanted me to disappear.... which was a god awful feeling.

You have a hard time asking for your needs to be met because again... to the past... your parents made you feel that you shouldn't ask for anything that you were too much for them, a burden etc. This is a main issue for many of us on here.

Of course you should talk to him about this. I know it's hard but if he rejects you then it would be another red flag to me. But it is important enough to risk it.

Take care
TN

HI TN ... He has told me that he does none of the things I attribute to him ..(I'm really not sure I believe him ... the last T was definitely doing things to make me feel rejected and I was ignoring all of them - she was also really bad at it and made comments, like - i can't get anything out of you )

But he insists that he doesn't do the things she did ...... . when am I going to listen? He also told me that he is neither the most awesome thing in the world or the worst thing .... He brought up the black and white thinking, which is common with co-dependents? I guess it stems from when you are little, and you want love or attention from your parent and they don't give it to you so you make up some reason why they aren't giving it to you to make yourself feel better???? You can't possibly think badly about the parent you so adore and are so dependent upon, can you?

I did bring up the yodel story to him ... did I write about the yodel story? About the mean best friend who offered me the yodel or the apple? and because I kept saying, "I don't care, she gave me the apple and stormed away ...????" Anyway, he seemed to like my yodel story ... and we even talked about yodels ... and then he said, okay, let's bring the yodel story into the present, Liese, are you asking for your yodel?

i kept thinking today, why am I so mad at him about the comment he made yesterday??? why? why? why? (when I ask myself three times, i usually get an answer! LOL) .... And I realized it's because I'm letting his comments control what I talk about ..... I explained to him that in my family, we were not allowed to talk about the past .... if I did, it was certain rejection ..... so everytime he mentions something about living in the past, all my alarm bells go off .... so see, I talked about the yodel story and it was okay ... we actually had a nice time talking about it ....

with the rape, and this is hard to talk about, the reason I was so mad at myself was because I pursued this guy initially .... I was sooooo needy .... and I decided in my head that everytime I need sometime, it always winds up in disaster ..... and so I am not going to need anyone anymore ... well, as you can imagine, that has had disastrous consequences .... and so i think that's why i got mad at him yesterday ... two sessions ago, i complained to him that i don't have his education and his experience so i can't fix myself ... and he said, "you don't need it" .... then yesterday, i was complaining that his comment was offputting and hurt my feelings so i decided not to talk about the transference until i had it all figured out ... and he said "good" ... you need to figure out things on your own .... and i said, well, i thought you were supposed to help me with that ... and he didn't really answer .... so which is it??? do I need the education? or do i have to figure things out on my own ....???? maybe i just don't get his style always .... his style of getting me to "see" my own needs .... that people in real life very often talk from their own place and i'm reacting to them not taking care of my needs .... does that make sense?

Although he doesn't rake through the past, (he definitely listened to my history when I started with him 3 years ago) i am realizing that it's okay to have these feelings towards him and he will help me sort them out as far as how they relate to the dysfunctional patterns in my "real" life .... He told me 3 sessions ago that we were going to start doing that ... although we been talking about other things ... and so, my thinking today is that when I have a strong reaction to something he says, it's because one of my needs isn't being met and I'm giving him power over that need .... and i see that he very often speaks from a very, how do I say it, literal point of view ... maybe he believes in a general sense that it is good that i start to figure stuff out by myself but maybe that's not really what I'm asking when I ask him things??? and maybe that's why i feel so offended then by what he says ???? Just throwing that out there ..... because he did say to me yesterday that he wants me to be more direct with what i want .... so maybe he really isn't the evil demon that i make him out to be sometimes? I know I do get hurt by him TN .... I do .... I'll admit that ... but on the other hand, I do think he really cares .... really, afterall, what is so bad about believing in a general way that i have to figure things out by myself .... ???? not right now ... not tomorrow ... but maybe someday??? it's not a rejection but just a general statement of belief???

Or am I making excuses again for him???? And not being honest with myself about how much it hurts me??? It was after that, though, that he did an abrupt and noticable change and talked about therapy being a safe place ... and the whole rest of the session felt soooo good ....he told me he did care about me .... and he talked about my bad experience with my last T and I told him about the T I saw in college, the one I couldn't talk to for months and I told him how brutal that was ... and he said, so you've have 2 bad therapy experiences ..... AHHHHHH ... it hurts to much not to trust, doesn't it???? And it hurts to trust .... I guess I have to figure out what trust is??? If I don't trust my feelings and I don't trust other people, it's no wonder I don't get close to people!!!

Liese...wow. You really are "working through transference." Such a confusing and painful place...but it sounds like as you are opening up more about the relationship with your T, he is meeting you there?

I really understand your questions about the past...I am in a similar situation with my T. He doesn't want me to live in the past, either, but it't seeming more and more as the trust is building that he is willing, even "wants" to go there. That is a confusing issue for me, as well. Hm, it sound like you are getting there with your T? Kudos to you, for opening up to him about how what he says and does or doesn't do affects you. I think that is really crucial. (But hard to do!) I have found that it works wonderfully when I am able to do that in a moment-by-moment way. That's hard to, because becoming aware of waht my emotional reaction or question is *right now* processing it, and then speaking up about it to him, is a huge deal for me. I like that he wants you to figure things out for yourself...when in the middle of these intense feelings, it would be terribly easy to just accept your t's view and ideas on how you feel and what you think about it all...sharing what you think and feel about it all is such an importnat part of the process, It hink, and if he is giving you the space to do that, it's a huge gift. I guess they call that "keeping himself out of the room.." It feels awful, but if it's what he is doing then, it's actually a huge gift to you. Sorting all of this out and the red flags too, and if they are red flags or not...argh, it's just not easy..

BB

Hi BB ... so glad you can relate .... sometimes with my emotions, I go round and round ....He keeps talking to me about emotional reasoning and in a very general sense, I understand him... but when you are talking about my emotions and the pain I experience, it's hard to be very logical ....

Now that you say that you think it's good thing that i figure things about by myself too, of course it's clear that I've never been very good at understanding my emotions and probably often throw them out there to usually the wrong people and wind up feeling twisted and screwed .... You make an interesting point about the moment to moment stuff .... it took me two years to bring that up to him .... although now I am talking to him also about more recent events, like the letter, etc. so while not on real time yet, getting closer to the actual event ...

And, honestly, he was just sharing his opinion with my, it's good, you need to learn to figure things out on your own ... so why did it hurt so much ???? I know no one is going to answer me because I have to figure it out on my own ... LOL!

Liese, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe the reason it might hurt so much, is because you need some guidance and permission to explore and work out what you are feeling and thinking in his presence. If he is just sitting there, sometimes we can feel very "left behind." At least, that is how it was for me, when my T was less "helpful" than he is now. While my T will still leaves the session up to me, what we will talk about...entirely, which drives me crazy- I think after all my complaints and agonizing about that, he still will open with "what do you want to talk about today." I want him to figure out for me, what we should talk about, what seem importnat to *him* that *he* thinks will lead me to a place of healing to talk about, and it hurts that he doesn't know the answer- and it feels like he's not interested because he leaves it all up to me.

But, I've come to realize that even though I'm still feeling *left behind* by this, and it still tends to freeze me up and make it really hard to get into the session, my T is doing this for a good reason, to teach me something, to help me learn a skill...the skill of figuring out what is bothering me, and bringing into conscious awareness *by myself* (but with him there to help me once it does.) He *might* be wrong...it really might not be what I need- but at least after lots of questioning of him, and thinking about it, I have come to know that it is coming from a place of care, and that helps a lot in going with him and trying to do what he wants me to do on this issue...which is that I decide what we talk about. Does that make sense in your situation? It used to feel like disinterest or that he just forgot about me and was waiting for me to fill in the blanks for him...but now it feels like he is trying to teach me something I need to learn how to do. I sincerely hope that this is what your T is doing for you, too.

BB

Hi BB ... yeah, I kind of feel like an emotional idiot ... I hadn't realized, until I joined the forum, just how much I dissociate in general and how much with him ... He's never pointed it out to me ... he just kind of goes with the flow ... so to speak ... but I know that I need help with identifying what I am feeling and my needs and all that ... although I guess if I am dissociating, then I am not able to be in touch with what I am feeling??? So maybe the first step is for me to stop dissociating? I haven't talked about that stuff with him .... I'm sure he's noticed my dissociation .... it happens all the time .... and then I forget what I am going to tell him ....

So maybe he hasn't helped me with the emotions part because I have been unable to do it???? Does that make sense??? So until I stop dissciating, maybe he can't really help me with identifying my emotions? Of course, I am making all this up ....

Tell me more about your T and why he's overseas and how often you talk to him .... Will he be back soon or is the overseas thing permanent .... ??? Just wondering how long you've been with him and if you've considered finding someone new??? I know it's hard to start over but it must be hard not having a live person there with you .....

Hi, Liese...gosh I feel badly because somehow I completely missed your reply, here! I'm so sorry I didn't reply to you sooner when, obviously, I've been on here!

Wow, I hadn't realized that you were getting spacy in sessions...that truly makes things really difficult...I think I've experienced it myself, though I have no s/a that I'm fully aware of, in the sense that any s/a I had was either fully repressed (I remember nothing except very vaguest details that don't feel real) or just slight, as I would tend to classify it, after reading about some of the horror people have endured- on here. Well, I used to get really spacy in session, it's gotten better now with the increased trust- and also in all my relationships to the point that I didn't really feel "real." Over the years this has gotten a lot better, but it comes out in therapy, though my T and I have never discussed it in detail...(I don't think?) Once, recently my T asked: "where did you go" and mentioned that I seemed spacy...I was just feeling surprised because that wasn't how I was experiencing it. and I couldn't say anything. For lack of better way to explain it. ugh, I guess for me, dissassociation isn't something that I really "experience" I just kind of know it happened, maybe? and don't really think of it as that big a deal...just a reaction I tend to have for whatever reason, I get a bit spacy. Is that how you experience it? I know some people have said it's really important to talk about that you feel/felt spacy, just, for whatever reason, myself I haven't been able to do that. But I tend to agree, that if you feel that way in sessions, it's probably important to tell your T, if you can. (???) Just maybe, not there, or something myself.
idk... I think there are probably stages to therapy...if your t is a good one, he knows that. My T once made reference to such a thing, being ready for this or ready for that...very healing to experience that someone would care, am I "ready" for something or not...let me know what's up...But I wouldn't idealize- that he has some kind of special knowledge or power, because, that is usually dissappointing in my experience. You must learn somehow, to tell him. Wanting to be rescued or magically, intimately "known." Dissappointing, in my own experience. Just not possible, we have to learn...say what is on our minds, not expect that our minds can be read- oh, I know that desire, trust me- truthfully; learning to express ourself honestly and authentically- without the manipulation that is so inherent in us all- that's the point of the therapy, kind of- among many other things- and finding out what the rewards of being in such a relationship of authenticity with another can be- *to my way of thinking.* Now, just don't get my feelings so involved- even though that is also the point- because than none of it makes sense or has any direction except getting my T to love me, somehow- anymore! But I need that too, says T! (huh???) Oh, so confusing paradoxes everywhere in therapy, I find. Let me know your thoughts.

quote:

but I know that I need help with identifying what I am feeling and my needs and all that ... although I guess if I am dissociating, then I am not able to be in touch with what I am feeling??? So maybe the first step is for me to stop dissociating?

If you are really dissassociating, I really don't think it is something you will be able to "just stop doing." I don't think? Any time I have "expereinced" that reaction in session, it was really more as a sense that the session or parts of the session kind of "didn't happen." Afterwards- it felt like spaces were missing- if that makes sense. I couldn't remember parts I wanted to remember...I knew what was said before and after, but there was a significant sentence or sentences or parts, missing. It's not like something that I consciously decided or had any control over- I guess that's why I can't really understand why people feel guilty for dissassociating. (???)tha tlawyas worreis me... Is there any control here? eeek. I think this is one area where a person really does need "rescuing" for lack of a better way to explain it. Oh it is just so frustrating to forget sessions, or parts of sessions- like you weren't even there, even though you *know* you were there. How I hate that. I don't think you are making any of this up, though Liese...truly, if you are dissassociating in session (I don't really like that term, for some reason, to me it makes it seem so "dramatic" -and in my case it really isn't at all dramatic) then you need some help from T. My T started to repeat things...that really helped me alot. You could ask him to repeat, maybe?
How that helps me, anyway!

[QUOTE Tell me more about your T and why he's overseas and how often you talk to him .... Will he be back soon or is the overseas thing permanent .... ??? Just wondering how long you've been with him and if you've considered finding someone new??? I know it's hard to start over but it must be hard not having a live person there with you .....] [/QUOTE]

Liese it is so sweet of you to care about my situation here, and on your own thread besides! I think I really need someone to talk to about this specific situation, and I really appreciate your care, so much....it means a lot to me. My T is overseas, because I found him online with a specific set of qualities I was looking for in a T...I think I said this elsewehere but after reading his website it was really *him* that I wanted to work with and no other T. He just seemed to have some wonderful quality, openness-care- wisdom- humility- something in a T that I was really looking for. His website had lots of typos...even thoug he looked so wise, wellknown- idk. So I decided to contact him...very scary! And I do not regret...but it is hard to not be in person, and as we go along, harder still. The closer I get to him, the farther apart we feel, if that makes sense. At the beginning, maybe, I actually subconsciously needed the physical distance, who knows? This is a pulling together and pulling apart at the same time kind of relationship, I suppose. I've given it a lot of thought. I think, that someone on here, wise person, once said that we recreate therapy relationships that kind of mirror the relationship we had with our parents, in an attempt to reconcile and remake those relationships in a more positive way. That really resonated with me...else why would I have chosen a T so far away, and *physically* unavailable in every way? Some part of me believes that one day, if I find the healing with my T- I *will* meet my T in person, and even maybe, be able to touch him or be touched by him. Who knows? It could happen. You never know. Though that would be some kind of miracle, for sure. I've been with him for a year and a half now. I wouldn't change T's. just wouldn't, couldn't, even if I *should* for my own good. Not an option. He's an awesome T. There's nobody like him.

Thanks for your care, Liese...sorry to post such a long post- I hope you are well, notice you are *MIA* lately- and hoping all is ok! Let us know how you are!

Love,

Beebs

Hi Beebs,

Thanks for your reply. I should be more careful about my posts. I think I was identifying my situation with yours and probably shouldn't have asked you all those questions. I usually see my T every other week and I've come to realize that I like it that way. He's there but not too close. Recently I've needed to see him more but I had to acknowledge to myself that the relationship was important. And that I really need him to care about me.

I didn't know I was dissociating but now I think I've been doing it a lot. My memory has gotten really bad. I was really worrying about early on-set alzheimers. But now everything I have read about trauma seems to indicate that the dissociation is associated with a traumatic event. It actually makes me feel better to think I've been dissociating because then I think that there might be a cure as opposed to alzheimers.

I very often forget what I am going to talk about in session and seem to really need a script. If he asks me a question, I very often forget what I was saying.

You've probably read about my recent troubles with him where I spent the day in bed with my eyes rolling in my head because I didn't think he cared about me. Since that day, although it's taken me a while to feel a bit normal again, I'm more aware of the dissociation. I'm better able to make emotional connections. And so, for some reason, the pain I experienced (as awful as it was) helped me become a little unenmeshed and it helped me to recognize my anger and my needs. For instance, last week I had a pretty good day on Wednesday. On Thursday, I started feeling a little wierd, a little disconnected. I didn't know what was wrong. Two months ago, I would have stayed in that stayed. But for some reason, experiencing the pain i felt several weeks ago, allowed me to access my emotions more easily than I've been able to. I soon realized, with some internal dialog going on, that I was nervous about my husband fighting with my daughter. I was going to be out for the evening. And, although she was snotty to him, when he gets mad, he gets a wild look in his eye and I didn't want him to bash her with his anger. So I called him on the phone at work, he listened to me and said, you're right, I am in a snit. Thanks for telling me. So I went to my class and everything seemed fine when I got home.

I really don't know what the psychological mechanism is. I guess I avoid feeling pain because of the unresolved pain from the trauma. And, so anything that triggers the pain, goes under the radar ... and as life goes on and the painful experiences keep racking up, from the small experiences to the larger ones, the dissociation builds and builds. Maybe during less stressful times, I dissociate less. I guess that's why you have to go back to resolve the trauma.

I have not talked to my T about my theories. Just pieced things together by reading about trauma. But I do feel more hopeful that I'll be able to recover my memory and be able to function better in the future. Does that make sense? I do tend to make things up.

Hello Liese I'm sorry I haven't posted in your thread so far because I don't have any real experience of attachment/positive transference/good feelings towards a T so haven't had anything of use to contribute. But your posts about dissociation resonate - I can relate very well to your feeling better about being able to identify various things that happen to you as dissociation, rather than having to fear early on-set alzheimers. I worry quite a lot about that too because of memory loss and general forgetfulness and, especially in therapy, not being able to remember much of what has been said, stuff like that.

I've never considered that I dissociate, but in today's session with T I did experience something that happens sometimes where I go all 'heady' and feel quite disconnected and end up saying all sorts of things that don't seem to mean anything - either to me OR to T - it's a horrid state but I'm still fully aware of what's going on. T said it's a form of dissociation on one end of the spectrum. And in fact having her label it for me did make me feel a whole lot more comfortable about it - instead of beating myself up for not being as in control of myself as I demand.

It would help though wouldn't it that your T know how this is for you? Do you think you will talk to him about it? It could be something important for him to know.

The main reason I wanted to post here though is your final comment. Where you say you tend to make things up. I was a bit horrified to read that (in the sense of, ohhh I don't think that's true) - I wonder if it's something you consciously do, or are aware of doing, or, as I'm thinking, something you've been told or led to believe? Why do you think you make things up? Sounds like a judgement of your reality made by someone else. Or am I completely off the wall here, reading something into your words that isn't there?

Sorry if that's pushy, I'm just a bit concerned as to why you would think that.

Good wishes to you Liese

LL

HI LL,

Not to worry. I have a lot of negative transference going on too. I originally thought that transference referred only to the positive emotions towards my T. But I've come to understand that it's all the emotions towards my T or anyone else for that matter.

I've been talking to him about how I've been feeling since my day in bed with my eyes rolling because I thought he should know how bad I have been functioning. But he hasn't said anything like, "you've been dissociating". I've been piecing it together from reading the forum and reading stuff about trauma.

My Dad told me all the time growing up that I was making things up in regard to my distress. So that's probably why I said that. Since I've been in therapy with my T, one of my problems has been that I've been reading about therapy online and deciding that he's using this technique or that technique and that I should respond this way or that way. I never actually talked to him about what I was thinking, although he knew I was watching his every move. It has actually driven me crazy because I know he assesses me and my general sense is that they do have some kind of road map. You're not ready for Y until you complete X. And I've been digging and digging online trying to find out how they assess people. There's been a few times when I wanted to leave therapy because I didn't feel as though I was making progress but he would slip in a statement that there's still work I could do. So I stay. because I want to heal. I'm probably so passive and maybe he would give me more direction if I demanded but part of me thinks he just waits until I bring it up. We finally got to the point where he told me recently he wants me to be more direct. He also told me I've made a lot of progress in the last 4 weeks. And I'm like, oh thanks a lot, that was really painful. and he acknowledged that it was painful.

And, so part of my problem in life has been mixing my needs with anyone else's really. I don't seem to discriminate. And I go out of my way to meet their needs and I haven't been able to separate that in my head. sure, someone can say, you need to stand up for yourself, but this was part of my psychological makeup. And, so the anger, maybe, at my T at not having my needs met 4 weeks ago accomplished that separation where I was able to see myself as a separate human being. I described it to me T as follows: I saw a brightly colored magnet, like a refrigerator magnet. And the words on it were my T's words. And they were in a large bold font. And the words said, "of Course I care, because that's who I am" ... and then suddenly a translucent sticker peeled off, with my words on it. And my words were in a small, light print. And I couldn't read them before because they were on top of his words. And my words said, "I'm sorry, but I'm just not feeling it". It was such a powerful experience. And it allowed me to experience my feelings and to accept that we could have different points of view and that I could disagree with him.

And so, I decided that his refusal to meet my needs actually had the effect of accomplishing that separation. And, so I decided he did it on purpose, even though he risked my being angry and not coming back to therapy. And, in one fell swoop I decided he was brilliant and forgave him for not meeting my needs. But he denies my scenario. I really don't beleive him because in my heart, I believe that there must be a technique for accomplishing separation in people who come from enmeshed families. Anyway, however, it is for my benefit I guess that I go along with him and trust him and relate to him in a genuine way. Instead of always looking to see how me might be manipulating me.

Does that explain things a little? And LL I have been following your thread but I have to go reread it again to refresh my memory (that ole' memory aint what it used to be. Actually I don't think it was very good back then!)

quote:

however, it is for my benefit I guess that I go along with him and trust him and relate to him in a genuine way. Instead of always looking to see how me might be manipulating me.

Very wise words, Liese! It seems like you have pretty much decided to stick with this T and work it through with him, then?

Oh, I'm sorry about the day in bed. I ahd a few of those before I started to get used to these feelings...I think once the trust starts to build, the transference pain eases a bit...that has been my experience. I hope you are doing ok!

thinking of you-

Beebs

Really, when I read my post about separation, I do see that that's exactly how a toddler or child would separate from their parents - by not having their needs met and by feeling that anger that comes along with it. Over time, the child would form a separate sense of self. I guess, though, the parents would have to be supportive of the child and validate the childs needs and teach the child how to get their needs met .... so I guess it does all make sense.

Anyone have any experience or insight with separation issues?

Sorry, Liese, I don't really understand anything about separation, or what this means? Hopefully, someone else will weigh in who knows something about this scenario...

Hope you are well today...

Love,

BB