Tas you do seem a wee bit distracted by THE question. A distraction can be a defense.

Perhaps it is wee Tas that keeps hearing No, but she is unable to accept it. You know you can walk away anytime, and take your whole self with you, including the file. Why go back if you know he will say No again?

Unless you want to show him how an*ry/hurt you can get by walking away. That could be seen as being protective, but .....not at all constructive.

I really cant see you going in session blazing swords and breathing flames of an*er Tas. It doesn't work like that. Its a *very* slow awakening to it.

quote:

Would it be wrong if I sent the Therapist a letter stating why this is so important to me?

I don't think it would be right or wrong - it's what you want to do, or feel is needed. That said... I think an outside of session letter explaining that you want/can handle/need outside of session contact demonstrates a clear disrespect for his current boundaries. I think that sort of thing wouldn't help your case at all. Ya know? A note in session may be good to get your feelings across, but I don't think your T will bend at all on the contact. I know you can't seem to get past it, you will eventually I hope whether it is with this T, or another one, or within time.

muff is right that you can walk away with your whole self.

quote:

Has your Therapist ever told you that there is no need to discuss a certain topic any longer? That the topic is keeping you from doing the real work of therapy?

Yes, TAS. It was the most confusing and painful experience of my therapy (so far). It wasn't until I committed to trying to do things T's way that we were able to go back and discuss my "sticking point". I wish T had handled it differently, but I risked trusting her because I didn't want to derail my therapy. I figured since I wasn't absolutely sure about quitting, I would keep trying until I was sure.

RabbitEars

The truth hurts.

G*d dont we all know that Tas. But feeling what must be felt is release.

Muff is right. The truth can be almost unbearable but it is the path to relief and healing

hi, TAS. since he is not for outside contact, i think it would be good to write the letter and bring it to session with you on wednesday. it is often-times easier for me to write and brings things in than to rely on my brain and mouth to connect and make things happen in session.

i don't remember who said it orginally (maybe it was GE? ... muff also just made reference), but the more i read your posts, the more i wonder if they are right about you making the demand for outside contact a diversion from what you really need to be talking about. i could be totally off-base, but that's just the feeling i get. i totally understand the yearning and longing feelings, but you have consistent negative transference and realize that it is unjustified as your T has remained trustworthy, yet you desire outside contact with him. to me it somehow doesn't match up. i know it's not intentional and i know it's confusing and frustrating. and i know outside contact is important to some, and some Ts allow it and some Ts don't. you want it but your T won't provide it. what does this induce in you? what feelings do you need to express? i don't know, but maybe that is what you need to address to his face, that you are pissed that he won't budge. maybe you need to express your rage before you can move on, instead of being intellectual. i'm stretching my neck out a little. if i'm totally off base, i apologize. as always, i'm thinking about you, TAS, and wishing you the best. you're a good, honest, seeking soul.

You could start by admitting how you feel Tas. Tell him you are afraid of being hurt again.

((TAS))

We cant feel it for you Tas. You will have to do that, and you will be the one that reaps the rewards.

TAS, I should add that it took me 2 months (8 sessions) and many crying,screaming, raging fits (at home) to get to the point of trying things T's way. Not to mention some raised voice and profanity in session... It was a bumpy ride, and I'm just barely holding on.

So--I didn't mean to minimize the difficulty of your situation at all. It's a tough place to be.

RabbitEars

TAS,

I feel like you're three steps behind me. Your journey is so similar to mine.

You know that I've consulted two other Ts and they are definite options, but I keep going back to my T. Every time I see her it is so hard, and she almost always does or says something that triggers a cascade of anger, hurt, grief. And then I think, this is another reason she's not the right T for me. Yet I go back.

I have unfinished work with her, but I have come to realize that just because I am doing this work with her doesn't mean that I am going to stay with her. Yes, I could talk about this stuff with one of the other Ts. But it's really better for me to try to push through it with her.

I spent weeks and weeks and weeks writing and crying and posting here and processing. I sat down the other day and read through the past four months and I can see how my feelings are evolving. Now I have let go of trying to persuade her to change. I continue to come to a clearer understanding that she is going to do what she wants and I have no control over that. But I really want her to UNDERSTAND what this trip has done/meant to me, and I want her to EMPATHIZE.

I still have huge feelings about all this and I have wanted to "hurt" her back. Then other times I just want to hug her. I don't know if she will come through with what I want, but I feel compelled to keep talking with her until I know. Maybe I will be hugely disappointed, but I will have done all I can. I accept that it is likely I will move on.

I think it's easy for others to listen to me talk and b*tch and cry about T and then to tell me to find somebody else already! But I know I need to do what I'm doing. It takes as long as it takes. In the middle of it, I'm not sure if what I'm doing is termination work or reparative but I'm okay with that.

I had to write about a lot of anger. All of that sh*t really does need to come out. I think that if you keep processing, you will start to feel some movement. My advice would be for you to skip the upcoming appointment - call to cancel and schedule for the next week (just so you have the appointment - you don't want him to give away your slot because you miss an appt). I, personally, needed some of those blocks of time away from T to allow the wounds to air. To have time to think, feel, write, process. It doesn't sound like you're ready to leave him, TAS, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to stay with him either. You're too confused, numb, stuck. That's not a really good place to make a big change. Keep working it through until you have more clarity.

The other thing for me is that I know I have options. I've talked with two Ts. I may talk to another one. Given what you're going through, I didn't like how the T you called handled things. Why bother to change if that's what you'll get? If it was me, I'd talk to some more therapists.

It's been really hard for me to follow your threads, but I've gotten a lot to think about from the feedback you're getting. [Hello out there - you're helping me too.]

I'm sending you hugs, TAS, and a virtual pair of Keens, because they are really comfortable and I think you need all the support you can get on this journey.

RT

Just why do you think this IS so important to you, TAS?

((RT))

Your post was so thoughtful and so insightful.

Thanks for sharing it, and I know it was directed at TAS, but I was moved by your words as well.

Blu

Ah yes, our Blu was one unassuming gal that shone like a beacon even in her anon state. She is a universal treasure in here and a damn fine Aussie, to boot.


Pic of blu ..

Talkin bout you Blu.

And it doesnt take much to 'see' you in the same light Tas.

I promise to reply to each of you individually. I have to head to work ... thank you guys so much. <3

I feel I have run straight into a solid concrete wall and am reeling. I just want all of this to go away.

More later,
T.

TAS,

You are a courageous one, and it will take you far.


((Muff)) thank you. Ditto!

Hi TAS,
I haven't kept up on everything lately because my life is turning in a different direction these days. I wonder if you ever went on the consult with the female therapist? I think another real life human can help put things in perspective and may help you find some relief in your current T. I am seeing my female T every three weeks or so but realizing how much I have with her and seeing the male T who I feel not so much with and in a way that is a relief to not feel as attached to him. I feel like my transference with female T was too strong and I struggled to hear anything much of what she was saying. Now that I hear "some" of the same stuff from him I can appreciate her more. She is also indirectly offering her support on more of a "overall client basis" and sometimes directly in saying "use me." Of course I don't know if your current T is anything like that but maybe you will find some relief in not seeing him for a few weeks. Just my thoughts.

's
Hopeful

added after reading others comments.
I feel you are courageous also and you will be successful in that you never give up. It's a hard thing to keep going when you want to just give up so often.

Muff: Honestly, I do not know how I feel. Numb. Confused, even more so. When I think about this my brain just says, "I'm outta here." How do you tell someone how you feel when you are confused?

Catalyst: This is the thing, I am not trying to be disrespectful. Honestly, if I had known he did not allow contact...I would NEVER have contacted him. But, I did contact him, he replied and that is the way it has been. I feel he should have let me know this up front...and not make such a major change. I trusted him. I did. Now he has gone and made such a decision and I am the one having to try and sort it out.

I don't know why I am having trouble with this "No." Have you ever had something, treasured it and had it taken away? Enough on that.

Closed Doors...I live in the intellectual. It is very safe there. I can't handle emotion. I can't hold it well. It is better not to have it. Reminds me of some small birds flying toward a building...and I wondered, "Where are they going?" On the side of the building are letters of the name of the company...the birds fly behind the letters and make their home there. I have made my home behind words and sentences.

Thank you for your input...These comments are helping me shape this event...trying to see it as it really is as opposed to how I feel it is.

RT: I don't mean to be cynical at this point...so before I do...I want to thank you for your input and your heartfelt response

This is what I don't understand. The Therapist does something like this and in the same breath, asks "What feelings are coming up?" That confuses me even more because I am so thrown by all of this.

If you could have been in the office...he was so firm and so unrelenting. If I had known about the no contact policy...I would never have contacted him and trusted him in that way.

I did not do anything wrong and yet, I am being punished. I don't understand. I don't.

Yes, I have a couple of calls out to other Therapists...but what if I have the same experience? I can not go through this again.

Blu: Thank you I feel like the fight is wearing me down.

Hopeful: I have called another Therapist and possibly, I could work on the negative transference with this person.

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them. I am trying not to give up but I am beginning to lose hope.


If I missed anyone and did not reply, it was not intentional. Thank you GE for your support and kind words.

T.

(((TAS))) I don't think you are trying to be disrespectful at all - sorry if it came across that way. I just meant... he's made new boundaries (albeit in a way that hurts, in a way that's hard to deal with, and is intense and awful) and not respecting them, despite desperately not liking or approving of them, is poor boundaries. Does that make sense? I don't think he can let you contact him out of session - no matter how much it sucks and is important to you - because he doesn't believe you will adhere to them, and you'd be demonstrating that by continuing to contact him when he asked you not to. But... I understand it is unspeakably hard. I empathize a lot. I'm not saying it's "bad" just that it might not be the best way to process just in my own opinion, but it might be the best way for you. Maybe even seeing another T (who isn't at your T's office) just to consult may be extremely helpful... so you're not leaving him but just getting another opinion. Hopefully that other T you contacted on the phone can help you there.

Your lack of insight is sounding warning bells to me Tas. G*d I hope I am wrong.

Game over.

I don't think it would be wrong. You are not going to hurt the therapist by doing it. I don't think it will get you what you want - which I think is different from wrong.
If it were me, I would take a break from this therapist and try some different ones. It may be they are all like this one or it may be there is a better one for you. I don't fully understand the harm in trying out different ones because this one is not meeting what you want.

Catalyst: I know I have attachment issues and I wish I didn't. I am not sure if it comes down to trust again. I want to understand why I am struggling. Thank you for your kind words.

Muff: I am sorry. I probably need a beating. I would take any additional insight...and it wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Stoppers: I am going to keep trying to figure this out. Thank you for your kind words.

I feel at times I can't hear what is being said...I don't know if it is due to the emotion...
I am going to read and reread these replies and APPLY them.
Thank you,
T.

I was reading back over the posts...

BLT: You asked this and I don't know how I completely overlooked it. I am so sorry.

"Just why do you think this IS so important to you, TAS?"

I don't know, honestly. It's like I want to keep saying I need this and feel he is not hearing me if he doesn't change his parameters on this. Does being heard mean him changing what he feels is needed?

This is exactly what I mean when I say I am confused. Is he a good therapist because he holds to these boundaries or is he a bad therapist because it is causing me to hurt and he knows it?

I think it is interesting I skipped over this, albeit unintentionally. I think when he asked me how I felt the other day, I truly didn't know. I feel so out of touch with what I feel.

This is where my brain feels all jumbled...but I am trying to sort it out. I am suspending all judgment and trying to look at this objectively.

Thank you BLT for asking this. I am definitely trying to figure it out and will keep looking at it until I can put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Thank you for asking this important question
T.

I don't think it has to mean he is good or bad as a therapist in general - he may no longer meet your needs as a therapist. I think the focus on the specific therapist may be off here rather than putting the focus on you and how you can get what you think you need - in the bigger picture - not from this one guy.

(((TAS)))

I don't think it's as simple as a lack of insight. Trauma survivors were never able to verbalize their traumas. It's a therapists job to help you find the words you need in order to verbalize your pain.

From my favorite book, which can be a bit obscure, but the authors say a lot of awesome things:

quote:

The Symbolization and Encoding of Experience
Throughout the complex task of helping the patient to piece together the dissociated fragments of her personal history, the clinician must remember that truly traumatic memories are rarely, if ever, semantically encoded in memory. As described so many times, most memories of childhood sexual abuse recur as intrusive eidetic imagery, strange and inexplicable mood shifts, undiagnosable somatic complaints, dissociative episodes, ideational and or emotional flooding with only vague and seemingly arbitrary precipitants. The more terrifying and sadistic the abuse, the more confidently one can make this statement, because fear itself comes to mediate the forms of regressive disorganization that render verbal capabilities inoperative. This phenomenon can be accounted for along a multidimensional axis.

It is as if the memories of abuse and the entire system of self and object representations organized around those memories come to be trapped, encased within a wordless world. In the first place, the actuality of the sexual abuse is rarely, if ever, spoken of between victim and abuser--and certainly not in the wider family, where it threatens to destroy the entire familial system.

TAS, the most important thing is your persistence. Whether or not you stay with your therapist, leave your therapist, consult with other therapists, you are pushing forward in order to understand what is going on for you in a way that makes sense to you.

Therapy requires many leaps of faith:

quote:

This is exactly what I mean when I say I am confused. Is he a good therapist because he holds to these boundaries or is he a bad therapist because it is causing me to hurt and he knows it?

Does anyone really know the answer to this? We believe all this stuff, not because we can see it, but because it's been studied for a long time now and these experts tell us we do things for certain reasons. Until it resonates with us, we are relying on them to know what they are talking about. Hang in there.

I agree with the idea of respecting the current boundaries, writing the letter and bringing it into session.

I also agree it's ok to say you can't do without it, but as he has said he has no flexibility on it, I think that would be seeing another therapist, unless there is something else he can provide (maybe an object or card of some sort) that will help you connect to the idea that he is still there in between appointments.

However, I am honestly confused with your intention to write a letter about what you think and feel on the topic, sending it outside of session (testing his boundaries again), while simultaneously declaring you have no idea how you think and feel about it. That makes it seem from an outside perspective that the point is not to be heard and understood (as you say you don't have that information to provide), but rather to push, test, and fight the boundary in another way. If the objective is to understand it yourself and in the process come to a shared understanding, writing that letter about your confusion, and then bringing it into your session to discuss it would be the most effective way to do so.

I don't think there is anything wrong or abnormal about the testing at all. It's normal in therapy. However, if you remain unconscious of the underlying intent of your own actions and behaviors, it will obscure the understanding you seek and leave you perhaps stuck in this cycle of being unable to either stay and do the work, or leave and find an environment that is more conducive to it.

Could you pretend this forum is your Tband maybe just write to us what you would like to send him in this letter you're asking about sending? I think we could then maybe flesh out your feelings and the anxieties that prevent your feeling safe to bring it into your sessions in person. Until you do flesh it out, there wouldn't be much of a letter to send anyway, right?
Just a suggestion. Again, not judging you. I know this is hugely hard, having something that brought comfort (even if it also triggered pain and confusion) taken away. I remember telling my T immediately that it felt like the whole therapy process was "now $#!+" and the one thing that had made it bearable at the time to endure was being taken away. If your T can't talk about your feelings about it, even as you accept his boundaries, that would be a real concern for me. You'll probably be stuck in your therapy with him until you really feel he has heard and understands and cares, even if he won't change. I'm sure there is a lot of pain and terror around the powerlessness of this whole situation and I'm so sorry for that.

Sorry if there are any typos. I'm on my phone in the car.

Big (((hugs))) to you...and sorry if anything I said hurts. People pushing boundaries can be a big trigger for me, so maybe I'm not always as objective as I should be.

(((TAS)))

I was trying to be more openminded than I feel but, after reading Monte's post, I have to say I really second what she wrote. I've had similar issues in my own therapy. My therapist changed some boundaries and now we have a great relationship. Now we can work on the hard stuff. Oh, but getting to that point wasn't easy either and was very important stuff to work through.

I also agree with Monte with her TOO MUCH PAIN statement. Some therapists think that therapy is super painful. It is painful. But I think they might tend to minimize TOO MUCH PAIN and write it off to the experience. I've had two therapists tell me therapy shouldn't be THAT painful. You should be able to function in between sessions.

I think what really bothers me the most, and this is just my opinion, is not whether your therapist is right about the contact or not, but that he doesn't offer anyone outside contact says something to me about his level of commitment to his patients and his ability to care. He is entitled to have any boundaries he wants but I'm just saying how I would view that.

My own therapist has a 24/7 contact policy but he does not advertise it in the least. In fact, the first couple of years I was with him, he didn't seem to encourage any outside contact at all. There were a couple of scary things I went through psychologically out of session that had never happened to me before. When I told him about them, he just took it all in. He never said, "Liese, that sounded really frightening. You could have called me." I thought he was a cold, disconnected SOB.

Somehow it came up in a conversation that he is available 24/7 and that it was part of the job to him. This little piece of knowledge transformed my view of him from a cold and uncaring person to this incredibly dedicated, caring therapist who "got it". Someone who gets how hard it is to contain these incredibly intense emotions to just 45 minutes once a week on command. It doesn't matter that I have never contacted him in the middle of the night. But, just knowing that he would be there for someone who might need it, tells me what I need to know about him that helps me feel safe.

The problem now is that you don't know what to do. Do you believe your T and the people here who say you need to respect his boundaries? Or do you believe the others who say he should give you what you need and you should fight for it?

My big fear for you is that if you concede this point and stay with him, you could lose any sense of trust in yourself and trust in your needs. You need to have that sense of integrity. You should continue to hammer away at this issue until it's clear to you what is good for you and you feel resolved about your decision. Otherwise, you will feel an incredible loss of personal power. That just doesn't sound like a good thing. And, I could be doing a lot of projecting here so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Personally, I don't see a problem with sending the letter. It might save a lot of time if he reads it before session. He could choose to not read it until your session. Again, it's the same problem here. Your work with him is making you second-guess every move you make. Therapy should help you learn how to trust in yourself.

quote:

This is what I don't understand. The Therapist does something like this and in the same breath, asks "What feelings are coming up?" That confuses me even more because I am so thrown by all of this.

My last therapist worked like this and it just didn't work for me. I wasn't ready for it and you probably aren't either. It's only now - and I'm almost 6 years in - that I can work like that. I felt very invalidated when she would say things like that, as if what was happening to me wasn't real.

Isn't any form of abuse emotional abuse? I think I have managed to verbalize my pain adequately enough in therapy.

If I were to intellectualize all the pain I have expressed so far, I would say it was too much to feel all at once. The 'process' was never abandoned. It continues to this day by facing it head on.

I see the word fear, and process written, but very little of what is in between those two words. Pain/hurt/frustration/abuse/mood shifts/ emotional flooding/and trauma. Where are the words anger, and rage mentioned? That's what is between the words fear, and process. That is what we must cope with to undo the damage of any abuse.

No one will see the forest for the trees if we deny the way we feel.

(((TAS)))

Something Anon said struck me:

quote:

You'll probably be stuck in your therapy with him until you really feel he has heard and understands and cares, even if he won't change.

Can you or do you feel like this man understands and cares when he doesn't want to hear from you except for these 50 minutes a week? Even if you don't believe that he cares, I know you want to believe that he does so badly. I would want that too. Therapy boundaries are mind-screwers because our emotions don't always understand boundaries. It's a tough one to take in. It's a definite problem.

Muff, I think neuropsychologists have discovered that fear interferes with the ability of our brains to grow, that it actually inhibits higher level thinking. That makes sense when you think about it because we are just supposed to act when something is threatening us. We don't often have time to stop and think. I think that's what the authors were getting at. That as long as there is a level of fear being activated, verbalizing the trauma just isn't going to happen.

That's awesome that you have stuck with the process despite feeling so much rage. You are a great example for the rest of us. Anger and rage are very threatening emotions for some of us to acknowledge and feel though very necessary for separation. Some people just can't get to that separation phase. The anger is too difficult to experience. When I feel anger, it often feels like I'm being taken over by an alien. It's a very violent feeling and incredibly scary to experience. Maybe we can't allow ourselves to feel that anger until we feel secure enough with our therapist? Until the relationship is established and we trust them? It took me a long time to be able to even slightly feel and/or acknowledge anger towards my therapist. I distinctly remember the first time. It was as if there was a war, a real war, going on inside of me. The part of me that didn't want to feel the anger was trying to wrestle that anger and pin it to the ground something fierce.

The parts of us that are afraid of anger are afraid of it for good reason: by virtue of our histories. Our brains became wired to ignore, dimiss, minimize, push away any sign of anger when it reared its ugly head. It's automatic and happens so deep to the core that it takes a long time to draw it out and recognize it. You are fortunate that you have been able to do it. Keep chugging!

I hope it doesn't come across as me saying your needs are not valid, or your assessment of them is incorrect (and your T's is right), and you shouldn't stand up for them. I guess, for me, it just comes down to...he obviously has no intention of changing at the moment and I think that continuing to push back by doing what he has asked you not to do will actually probably make this particular T more rigid. There is no way anyone can know for sure what you need, and even a T doing his/her best to determine that will sometimes get it wrong, as mine has admitted to at times, and Monte's did, and Liese's did. If you trust your T and his investment in your own good, and want to continue to work things out with him, I think the best way forward is to respect his boundaries and really try things his way. If you don't trust him, or just CANNOT work that way (which is OK, I probably would have struggled to get where I am with such strictness, or else I would have complied and closed off so much), and he is completely inflexible, then you are taking care of yourself and standing up for yourself by saying you can't do it that way and finding someone who can work in the way you need to.

I'm not in the room, so I can't tell what the scenario is. There are times I think he is trying to offer you consistency and have you give it time to connect with inside kids that he is sticking with you, showing up. There are other times, it seems like his lack of ability to fully explain his decision (both offering it and taking it away), and lack of flexibility (or at least constructive conversation about its effect on you and offering other potential solutions that might provide you with what you need) seems like he is missing a vital connecting point with you, and just does not get it. I can't tell whether either of these perceptions is accurate, an that may be reflective of your own confusion.

Just remember, as powerless as you feel (and we are all powerless over others' boundaries and choices, as my T reminds me when I fear I'm manipulating him somehow), you do have the choice on how to proceed here. Your first choice (keeping your T and him complying with how you need to work) might not be an option, but you do have control over whether or not to work with someone who isn't meeting your needs or is causing more pain than help.

Therapy is extremely painful for me. If the help I was getting from my T, and my sense of trust in his care building over time, and my knowledge of his safety, didn't outweigh the pain and confusion of facing my past...honestly, I wouldn't be there anymore. But, you have all the power to make that decision and no one, not T or any of us, can make it for you.


More

"Therapy is extremely painful for me. If the help I was getting from my T, and my sense of trust in his care building over time, and my knowledge of his safety, didn't outweigh the pain and confusion of facing my past...honestly, I wouldn't be there anymore. But, you have all the power to make that decision and no one, not T or any of us, can make it for you."

quote:

I think neuropsychologists have discovered that fear interferes with the ability of our brains to grow, that it actually inhibits higher level thinking.

I think my brain is doing OK despite the emotional abuse Liese. I'm not sure how this therapy has contributed to that.

The process was all about feeling anger and rage.


I have not forgotten you from our last meeting Liese.

Thank you for finally dropping by.

quote:

Or do you believe the others who say he should give you what you need and you should fight for it?

Sometimes no is no regardless of wishes, shoulds and coulds. Just because something is demanded gives no one any obligation to give it to you - not even a therapist. Some Ts change their minds on things after they make a bad call, but it's not because you cried the loudest - it's because it's their decision and they think about it with you in a partnership (notice Monte worked her thing out in 1 (one) session, that's normal for negotiation). Eventually you'll run in to things you can't have in life... and if the strategy is just to relentlessly ask for it until someone says yes... there's a lot of room for a lot of disappointment there.

Poor TAS has been bringing this topic up for months now. I hate to be a pessimist here but c'mon... at a certain point no means no. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings... but you pay your therapist for a service. This service includes some level of expertise and is tailored to both the T and the client as much as is POSSIBLE within the boundaries of each of them and the professional relationship. What's up with the sense of entitlement? There are times things can be negotiated, discussed, tried out, but absolutely no T is under the obligation to do so. Even if 1000 people think they are wrong - sometimes it takes balls to be an individual and hold your ground and Ts do that a lot. They are people - if they don't want anyone interrupting them while they watch House or Glee or whatever every night, or they don't want to have to return calls while they are picking their nose and playing angry birds at lunch... they don't have to. Seriously. Sometimes people won't change their mind and do what THEY think is right.

I'm not sure about everyone else but I'm in therapy because I have no clue what I need and if I find something I need that also requires the help of others I also need to know how to ask for that in a healthy way. I'm sure my T would not teach me that if I'm trying to get something I need and the person says no, and I try to negotiate and they still say no... that I should just keep relentlessly asking. Like... I really feel that wouldn't be her advice, I could be wrong. Even if he "should" doesn't mean he will just because other T's have (it doesn't mean he won't either).

Just to clarify, when I said fight for it, I meant fight for it for yourself, TAS, not give up on it, whether it's with this T or another. I did not mean that to imply that the fight should continue necessarily with this T. I meant fight to listen to and hear that part of you that needs that instead of shoving it back down again and again.

Could be more projection on my part because I do that often. Or at least I used to. It's a tough and a bad place to be.