((((TAS)))) don't be sorry that it's negative, it's ok. i'm so sorry your first session back was so hard. i don't think i really have anythink constuctive to say. yes, i have ALWAYS since day one felt as though opening up to T was a betrayal to myself. as a result, that has been a HUGE obstacle to my therapy. it is very difficult.

i remember that dream that you had of your T. i think it's quite telling. i'm not telling you to talk to your T about it, but i am wondering if you ever did share that dream with him, and if so what did he say?

again, i don't know what to say. it certainly sounds from here that you have been very open about how you feel about the whole situation, but he's just never willing to give in to anything.

i hope others will have some good insight for you. meanwhile, good luck. i'm in your corner!

.

This reminds me of the day my dad gave me 5 lashes on my legs with a leather strap. The only control I had was to bravely face the pain, and not show it. He took that power away with the 6th lashing. I broke down and cried. I felt like I betrayed myself, and hated my father for it.

The wee girl you are with underground might be you with the adult you. Stay with her Tas. Help is on the way, and it will be you that will rescue the child. Keep listening to her pain.


.

Tas,

Did you actually say the words that you are struggling and WHY you are asking for a Saturday appointment?

I can't tell if you have actually asked or you want him to guess.

I am wondering whether he assesses that you are still protesting and you are not ready to work with him - still seems you are fighting him.

I get a lot of support from my T but I have had to ask for everything and justify why I need it and why I am asking. T's just don't give it.

YOu have to say the words Tas.

i do totally agree with SD.

i am slowly learning in my own therapy (and i'm NOT saying that this is what you're going through) that if it is not important enough for you to discuss, then they can discuss with you all they want until they turn blue, but it won't make a damn bit of difference to you. so it really is pointless for a T to try to "talk" you into doing something. YOU have to want it enough to talk about it. it has to be important enough to you (when i say "you" i really mean "me", so don't get me wrong). and ... it IS SO hard for some of us (me) to do that. but it's also critical if we're to live the life we are so capable of living.

just food for thought. alot of times, i feel like what you say here isn't necessarily discussed with your T. it's hard, TAS, but it's critcal if therapy is to work. maybe i'm totally off mark. take it for what it's worth. throw it out if it's trash.

CD Thank you. I did tell him I was struggling and told him about the backlash I was experiencing. How many times does one need to talk about something? I have told him before...

Muff It seems I will have to be the one...yet, I don't know how. Hence, seeking out therapy.

SD I am trying to be open as I can...thank you for your reply...

I promise to write more tomorrow...not feeling so good...

Thank you

T.

Tas I can't offer any advice but I know just how you feel. I want to quit therapy so badly right now. It's too painful.

quote:

I thought if I pushed myself that some of this toughness of the process would dissipate...yet, it hasn't.

Hi TAS. I thought the same thing, but it hasn't gotten any easier yet. I have just barely started opening up with my T though (after years of being closed off), so I'm still hoping maybe some part of it will get easier, at some point.

quote:

Has anyone experienced a feeling of betraying themselves when opening up?

Yes, TAS, I have felt this very strongly. I think for me it has to do with shame--for being open with my feelings (not allowed by my family), for being vulnerable in front of T, for feeling so much need and not knowing whether it is something T can fulfill, or whether I can stand for her to know I need her at all.

I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but the "betrayal" issue was what I discussed with T in my session today. When I risk opening up, it's a huge risk, so my expectations (which I can't actually describe) are really high--what will T do to help me? And then I often feel let down (betrayed by my own risk & hope & need), probably because T cannot provide all the "reward" I want/need (comfort, reassurance, etc.). I guess part of the T job is to let us feel that insatiable need

Hang in there, TAS. I've been on the brink of quitting for 6 straight weeks, wanted to ditch every session, but forced myself to go to every single one. Some of them were harrowing. Today, I think, I managed to move forward again. I wish the same for you--keep pushing through the doubt, TAS. Keep opening up and you will break through, and then you may have to repeat that process many, many times.

(((TAS)))

hi TAS,
i'm sorry you are struggling so much...and it seems like its never ending doesnt it?
i dont know if i have anything helpful to say, but i totally relate to the feeling of betraying myself when i open up. i also relate to the painful feeling that all the T does is sit there and watch, it's excrutiating sometimes and so maddening, i want to throw something at her!

again, this might not sound helpful at all, but i think you're doing great work, you are showing up for therapy despite all the struggle and the pain. and this is huge!! i hope you realise that. even though a part of you feels that it's all pointless, the part of you that keeps going in spite of all this, is brave, dedicated to healing and as stubborn as the other part that dismisses T. that's what i see, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong (sometimes you remind me of myself so i might get things a bit mixed up).

maybe you're trying too hard to open up and thus create even more conflict within yourself? i know that this is what happens for me. maybe instead of trying to open up and tell things to your T that you would rather not, you can say instead "i don't trust you and i can't tell you what a part of me wants to tell you"... and see where you go from there. i have found sometimes that this works better, i still try to communicate (and not completely shut down which tends to happen when i'm in conflict with myself) but i'm being honest (as honest as i can be in this stuck situation) and if things go well, i can say both points of view - the not trusting her - and the wish to share something for which i'm afraid i will hate myself. i have also had sessions where i didn't say anything at all, where i couldnt let myself speak to her.

just some of my thoughts and experiences. hope some of it is helpful.

take care,
puppet

hi rabbitears,
i thought what you said was really insightful:

quote:

When I risk opening up, it's a huge risk, so my expectations (which I can't actually describe) are really high--what will T do to help me? And then I often feel let down (betrayed by my own risk & hope & need), probably because T cannot provide all the "reward" I want/need (comfort, reassurance, etc.). I guess part of the T job is to let us feel that insatiable need

i struggle so much with these high expectations and never understood where they came from... mmm, i will chew on that for a while.... thanks!

puppet

((TAS))

I get the backlash you are talking about. IMO, he should be willing to help you with it, help contain you. I agree with you about wanting to feel like he's walking with you and helping you. The non-response can be the most hurtful thing in the world, adding insult to injury.

Thank you Turtle I appreciate you replying...I hope you are able to get through what you are going through and I am sorry you are struggling so...you are a fighter Hang in there...

Rabbit Ears...honestly, I have no expectation of him...except if I say I am struggling and request an extra session...he would HEAR me...but he is not. That makes everything much more amplified.

He knows how much I struggle with this and I don't understand, honestly, if you are seeing a therapist, they have to know it is because you are desperate and you have tried to use every resource before even taking that approach.

I know for myself, when I finally sought out a therapist, it was 4 1/2 years after the major trigger...I truly tried every single thing ON MY OWN to try to resolve what was going on within me...

I am not a needy person, I am fiercely independent, I always try and do most of everything in life on my own. I would agree that most times the relationship we have with T. can highlight how we interact with others, however...there is a different dynamic that brings out the most infantile parts...I don't think those are stirred in other relationships..

Puppet: It feels like it is never ending and I want it to end...I feel I didn't push myself too much...I am getting exasperated...the only analogy I can think of it when you are a child and an adult is asking you to do something that you don't have the ability to do...so you try and every time you try you see you can't do it...you see the limitations but the adult insists you do this...so it is repeated over and over and instead of the confidence being built up...you are worn down internally...you know you are being defeated on two fronts...one, you don't have the ability and two, the ability to believe in yourself is being slowly stripped away...then the feeling of desperation comes over me...and then, I lose myself...it's like I am suffocating...as the demand keeps being placed on me for something I am not equipped to do...I am being worn down internally and that is why I close myself off...

You are brave to sit in there...knowing how you feel...I think I am coming to the end...I have talked with him...about what I am experiencing...maybe it has been surface but it is what I can do at this time...The backlash is so much that I don't see the point in opening up...

Liese Thank you. Yes, the backlash is overwhelming and this is what confuses me. I go in, gently push myself to be open and I think I will move forward only to be knocked 20 feet back on my a**...

I am very close to pulling out the white flag of surrender. I understand he has to do what he feels is best. He is the Therapist. I am just sad that I couldn't get past this and sad I couldn't work it out within myself. My biggest hangup is me.

I hope you are well

T.

((((TAS)))

Don't beat yourself up. You get an A++ for trying so hard to make it work despite all your pain. These Ts are all working with their own templates and I am sure that he has your best interests at heart.

The trauma literature cautions the Ts to NOT underestimate the intensity of our pain but I bet a lot of them do, just as we underestimate others pain. My gut says that if he truly got how much pain you were in, he would do something to help you. It seems clear that he is caring and cares about you.

I felt like my T was ignoring my pain and we had a very emotional session when I told him just that. It was a turning point in our relationship. Sometimes they just get used to people being in pain or maybe they feel helpless or whatever and they just don't or can't tune in as much as we want them to.

My 6 year old was exhausted afyer camp the other day and was just crying and crying. Crying over not wanting to go to camp the next day and then crying - much more than she normally would - because she dropped her snow cone twice. I knew she needed to sleep and there was nothing else I could do to help her. No words to make her feel better. Then I wondered if that's how the Ts feel. They know its going to Hurt and its going to take time to trust and to heal and to some extent they have to sit back a bit and let things unfold. But it's the moment to moment stuff that we are going to remember. How they react to us when we are in pain. It might be worth the effort to try to get him to understand that you feel like her ignoring your pain. That could be key to your healing, to feel like someone is finally listening.

I know I am tas. I know how it feels to have pain ignored and not attended to in the way we need. So hang in there and see if you can't make him understand.

And I have some good backup literature if you need it.

Thank you Liese and RT!

He said he felt contact outside of session was not helping as far as containing what we were working on...I do understand that...I just felt when I had the contact I wasn't in more pain because I could touch base with him...

I recorded a message today and sent it to him...explaining how I was feeling, etc.

Maybe it is all me and how I perceive it. This is where the confusion comes in for me. Should he hold the boundary if he knows it is not helping, but causing me more pain?

If he indicates a boundary...is he truly responsible for me crossing it and the pain it causes when I do so?

I don't know...I just don't know. I do respect him and honestly, it has been slow going, but I am learning to trust him.

Thank you for your encouragement...I am trying to hang in there...I just don't know.

T.

RT: He said he does not allow any outside contact with any of his clients...I told him not all of his clients are the same...I touched on that today in the message I left him...

I firmly believe he is allowed to have the boundary, it's just I am having a hard time getting past his use of the boundary.

I told him today I can't make him respond and while I may not agree and I may not like it...it is his boundary. However, if I don't like it and can not seem to get past it, then I do not have to stay (I am not saying that in a three year old type of way)- it is true though, if it's not working for me and I keep having trouble with this boundary...it is okay for me to go, although I really do want it to work out.

If I can't get him to change the boundary, then what? I say I am going to have to leave because I can't bear going into session, opening up and then leaving...with all the emotion smacking me in the face due to the backlash of opening up. Then, I have no one I can really talk to about it because none of my friends are in therapy...so I may as well be speaking Chinese to them.

This is where things get confusing to me. Do I walk away, truly knowing he felt the need to do this in my best interest and yet, it was too difficult for me to see 'the best interest'?- and it makes thinking he truly cares much more difficult for me.

Is Therapy helping? I believe so. Maybe I am too scared to leave because it does mean starting over.

I told him today I know that he is doing what he feels he needs to do and it is unfair of me to keep asking for something he can't give.

I don't understand why this is such a big deal to me. I deal with a lot of people and am very understanding and respect other people's boundaries...this one, I just can't seem to get a grip on myself and do so.

Thanks for listening. I hope everything is going well with you in your therapy adventures!

T.

RT: I truly don't know if what you stated is what is going on.

He said no outside contact because it will help me to 'better contain what is going on...'

It's like there are two parts of me talking to myself...the first part is saying he has proven himself, etc. and he is trustworthy...

The second part is saying he is doing this to be mean...and he enjoys watching me struggle...

This is what I am talking about when it comes to the confusion. I want to believe he is not doing this for any other reason than he feels it is needed...but I don't trust that...or within me I feel he is just being mean because he knows how much this hurts me and he won't relent.

T.

(((TAS))) i think your last post is the most helpful so far.

i don't know if you caught my opening post on "why therapy is a mind-f*ck". it was about my last session (after a 7-month "therapy vacation") and how i construed nearly everything that he said to be a push-CD-out-the-door mind-f*ck. and honestly? his reply email to me was nice enough, but i can still find holes in it all and i ultimately cant' believe him. but, like your T, he has proven himself trustworthy and all of that. so i totally understand the conflicted feelings.

for me, though, it's not that he's being mean (well ... maybe) but the thing that sticks out for me is that he wants to be totally rid of me. and i believe that. and that's what keeps me from contacting him, because i think i'm a pain-in-the-ass for him. and after his nice email about how we can take this stuff on, etc. i am once again stuck with wanting to see and contact him, yet NOT wanting to FEEL that NEED!. i'm in limbo again! that's actually kind of an epiphany for me right at the moment!

anyway, although our experiences are different, they are also alike. i don't know if this helps. food for though? thinking about you

Hi TAS - can you clarify something for me? I don't know how put a quote in properly so I'm just going to copy and paste:
At one place in this thread you said:
"He said he felt contact outside of session was not helping as far as containing what we were working on...I do understand that...I just felt when I had the contact I wasn't in more pain because I could touch base with him..."

But in response to RT's question about whether any client is allowed outside contact, you said:

"RT: He said he does not allow any outside contact with any of his clients...I told him not all of his clients are the same...I touched on that today in the message I left him..."

Did you really mean that he used to let you contact him but now he doesn't? (Or were you with a different T in the past who allowed contact?) Because if he used to allow it, that goes against his blanket "no contact" rule for all clients. Has he changed his policy recently, or did he used to make an exception for you?

I don't know much of your history and maybe in the past you talked about feeling comfortable with him etc., but in your more recent posts, I am not feeling the empathy that I get when I've seen a therapist that "fits" for me - I am not feeling the love coming from him. Without that good feeling, I couldn't spill the really excruciating stuff. But maybe you are getting that.

You are correct that he can set a boundary - but it could be it doesn't work for you. Has the boundary always hurt you so much, or is it what you are working on? Different T's work in different ways. Of course I do understand how thinking about starting over is dreadful. I recently had it out with my T over something I've been upset about for almost a year - and I did it because the thought of starting over was killing me. It happened to work out really well, but it could have gone the other way.

I'm so sorry you are suffering.

Closed Doors

Yes, the mindfu** thread came to me as I have been in the throes of this...honestly, I know me viewing him as someone who is enjoying watching me struggle comes from my childhood...and honestly, I could never tell him I feel he is getting pleasure from my pain...that is an incredibly cruel thing to say...

I know my job is not to protect him from my feelings...but I can't bring myself to say this to him...

cd: are you going back? You are brave to go back after such a long break...

T.

Peanut:

He did allow contact for a while and then said he would no longer allow it...he felt it was not helping...

I want to feel warmth and belonging...but I feel the opposite...the transference has mostly been negative...I am trying to remove him from how I see things...not being very successful, I can tell you that.

Thanks Peanut

TAS, it may seem cruel, but ultimately your T knows it's not about him. especially what you've both been dealing with. and maybe that's the part of you that he's trying to reach? and you don't want to show him that part of you? a little too tender, maybe?

i don't know, TAS. i WAS brave enough to go back after such a long break. the question is: can i go back again after disclosing neediness that i despise? i imagine i will. it will undoubtedly be a hell of a struggle.

Hi TAS, I can identify with what you are talking about because I have always found it excruciatingly difficult to ask for anything at all. It feels as if I am being unreasonable and needy and setting myself up for rejection or ridicule.

In therapy I had four or five sessions with my T just talking about why I can't ask for stuff directly and how terrifying it feels to show I need anyone or even need the least thing from them.

CD...I completely understand. It is so disconcerting at times! WHAT is it that keeps us holding on and going back?

LouiseA: Thank you for sharing...It takes great courage to talk about what you need I struggle with that issue. Therapy definitely has a way of getting us out of our comfort zones.

T.

((((TAS)))) i was JUST thinking that this morning while driving: "T, WHAT is this magical pull that you have on me"?!?!?!!
and i was going to put LOL, but it's not funny at all. it's MADDENING!!!

TAS,
I can definitely see how your T allowing contact outside of sessions and then taking it away is awful and must be bringing up tons of nightmares from your past. Most of us are in this condition partly due to the people we relied on to meet our needs being horribly inconsistent in meeting them. I don't know if you can get him to change the boundary back or not but this may be the opportunity to express all the rage and despair you feel because of this. Don't protect him. He can take it. He has to know that your reaction to this change would be huge.

When my T rearranged her schedule years ago and had to change what night I met with her I blew up and melted down. It is small compared to what you are dealing with I know. I tried to express how i was feeling about the change. I wanted her to know how upsetting it was to lose "my night". She admitted that she was surprised that I took it so hard and she hadn't really thought the change would effect me that much. I guess I am the only client that made a stink about it. She didn't change her schedule back. I didn't ever completely deal with it though and I still have hard feelings. After a while I felt silly bringing it up-shouldn't I be over this by now? Apparently not but now, years later, I would feel completely ridiculous if I brought it up so some hard feelings are still there. I regret not thoroughly dealing with it all back then and "beating the issue to death".