(((((Jones)))))

Ouch...not fair, not fair. I am so sorry you are experiencing this. You know you opened up to take a big risk, hoping to be understood and safe. At first you thought you were, only to find out, maybe she doesn't understand after all, maybe it really isn't safe. This is exactly what I tried to do with my former T. I was so excited to finally have a T willing to listen to my story without judging...only to find out, he didn't really understand after all, not even close. Not that I didn't appreciate the effort...I think he really did extend himself as much as he could...but he really didn't get it, and carelessly said several things that felt exactly like that "spear under the armor" you described. It is the worst feeling. I kept trying to patch it up but it only got worse no matter what I did.

There have been no moments like this whatsoever with my current T. She has done nothing but validate and honor my feelings. I just returned from meeting with her this morning. One of the things I said to her today was I wish I would have found her when I was actively mourning the old BF because I would have liked to have worked through it with her. She never would have dismissed me or minimized my feelings as "not real" or "fantasy"...she would have tried to help me find out exactly where they were coming from, just like she is now.

The more I meet with her, the more I see that my former T and I were just really not a good fit at all. The more I met with him, the more unsafe it felt. The more I meet with her, the safer I feel. That's not to say it isn't hard, but the difficulties are clearly coming from me and my own defenses. They clearly are not coming from difficulties in being misunderstood and not heard.

How often has this happened? Is it the first time? Maybe you could tell her next time how hurt you felt, and why, and watch carefully how she responds. It must be hard right now to even consider admitting that, though, because in doing so, you are making yourself vulnerable yet one more time, which means you might get hurt one more time. But if you do...then you will know that maybe this T isn't the best fit for you after all. And if you don't...then your relationship will have grown.

Above all, keep trusting yourself, don't doubt the reality of your feelings just because she might turn out not to have the ability to understand. The special relationship you had really was special and you deserve to and need to be heard with empathy so you can heal. If she can't give you that, it's her shortcoming, not yours.

Please keep posting and let us know how it goes.

SG

Thanks, Strummergirl, for hearing me so well. It's a real relief to feel understood. I'm still out of sorts, had trouble sleeping last night because of this and my work commitments are such that I really don't need that at the moment. It's only a couple of days till my session, though.

There have been other times when I've felt misunderstood by her, and once early on she encouraged me to feel angry about it and to tell her.

I guess since then in our six months I haven't had to directly 'confront' her about anything - whenever I've felt misattuned I've been able to just slide my questions/doubts in in passing and my T usually catches the ball and addresses them in the same way.

She is often quite provocative or blunt in what she says to me and because I sometimes think like that too it usually doesn't unsettle me. I don't know if it's just her style or if it's a way she's chosen to work with me. And that's my overriding sense about the therapy - that I've got no idea what's really going on, or of her reasons for anything, and I avoid asking.

But I feel like I need to talk to her directly about this. Problem is I just don't trust myself or the process. I know we'll patch it up and I'll swing back to feeling like she's the greatest thing since Abba. But I still won't KNOW who she actually is or where things are really going.

And then I know this is also connected to the work we're doing on ambivalence....

Hi Jones,
I'm sorry for what you're going through, I know just how painful and confusing it can be. First of all, let me say that SG's response was very insightful and I agree with everything she said to you, especially about trusting yourself.

The thing that makes healing from these kinds of injuries are that the injuries themselves make it difficult to do what we need to do to get better. When you did not have good attunement or a caring other (or even more so were actively abused) you either weren't taught how to discern when your perceptions lined up with reality or you were outright told that what you KNEW to be true wasn't ("there's no abuse going on in this family"). So usually people with problematic pasts have a difficult time trusting their own perceptions. On the flip side, our experience has so entrenched the lesson that getting close to someone will get you hurt that we are constantly vigilant (think of a meercat lookout) for when the blow is going to fall and from which direction it will come.

So sometimes we ignore signals of danger we should pay attention to and other times we see malice where none exists. I spent a long time being very creative about looking for reasons to leave because moving closer to my T was so incredibly terrifying. On the other hand, you have people like SG or FOT who have had experience with bad Ts who didn't handle things at all well (or were outright exploiters). So how do you tell the difference?

My T throughout a long haul of being open about all kinds of feelings has always been very respectful and accepting of those feelings, even the ones that weren't so accurate. He has told me many times that the only way we know ourselves is in relationship. And that emotions come and go and sometimes they accurately reflect reality and sometimes they don't. So I asked him how you figured out when they did or didn't. And he told me "you have to ask."

You need to talk to your T and express how your feeling and see what she says. It may be that there may be misunderstandings that need to be cleared up. If that happens you'll know you can trust her. On the other hand, if you bring up being upset with her and she gets all defensive, can't hear you or tries to blame it on you, that's a good sign that you may be picking up on actual problems in the relationship and that you need to protect yourself.

I know that's its a terrifying thought to go in and be that open and you are risking getting hurt. But getting hurt won't kill you, it will just hurt and you've already survived a lot of that. And better that you know now before investing more time, energy and attachment in the relationship.

FWIW, I've felt the way you do on a number of occassions only to have it cleared up by talking about it. I remember once putting in an emergency call to my T and when he called back, he uncharacteristically rushed me off the phone (and my calls were usually only around 2-3 minutes). Things had been very intense and I was leaning on him very heavily. I was convinced that he was really frustrated and approaching burn out with me. I ended up sending him an (incredibly long, I know hard to believe ) email telling him my perception and offering to take a break from therapy if we needed to and I talked about not being sure about trusting my reaction.

I got an awesome answer, that he was rushed on the phone and he could see how I would see that as frustration but that he wasn't frustrated with me, he understood why I needed to contact him. And I should always ask when I felt that way so it could be clarified.

I would also add that one of the things I've most appreciated about him is that even though we have both acknowledged "transference" in the relationship in that my feelings have led to understandings about my past, he has openly acknowledged that my feelings are very real and valid and even that some of the attraction is about the here and now (while also assuring me that nothing will be acted on and keeping his feelings to himself). So I can see where calling it a "fantasy relationship" would sting. On the other hand, "fantasy" when discussing therapy does not have the same perjorative weight. Therapy is a "play" space where we have the freedom to consider things we wouldn't be able to otherwise. The word is also used to refer to things that simply are not possibilities such as having a relationship outside of therapy with our therapist. So it's not a statement of being deluded or immature but simply a description.

Just know that whatever happens you can come here for people who understand what you're going through.

AG

Thanks heaps, AG. I'll keep y'all posted. I know what you mean about the fantasy thing. In this context she was talking about delusion. I was saying that I wasn't entertaining certain hopes about a relationship I know is well over. Her: 'Really?' Me: 'I can't say anything, can I? I know you don't believe me.' Her: 'I'm challenging you because I know people who have fantasy relationships lie to themselves A LOT.'

I feel like this would have been fair a few months ago, but why doesn't she know by now that's not where I'm at?

Sorry, I'm just rehearsing the details because I DO want to talk to her about it but I'm scared I will chicken out. It feels so unnatural for me to tackle this stuff head on.

I guess the other thing that made it worse was that I had done some really hard work before the session making connections between what I was feeling and my childhood, and mentioned that I had been thinking about it in relation to my dad. Which is the first time I've really been willing to go near discussion of that relationship. And she didn't pick up on it, just left that alone and now it feels shut down again.

I'm so sick of wondering all the time what she is in control of and what she's not. How much of a plan she has and how much of what I feel is 'planted' deliberately because she wants us to go in a particular direction. I know that sounds paranoid. In fact I'd rather she was more in control of what's happening than less, but I know all of that IS just 'fantasy' and I need to start checking things out...

I'm wondering what I'm scared of if I do, and I think it's three things: that I'll be mocked, that she'll take the worst possible interpretation (as above) or that I'll be disappointed by what I find out.

But it's part of her job to have these conversations, right? Once I told her I wasn't into big, formal conversations with my husband and she said she thought I needed more of them. So she's not going to reject it if I bring stuff to her. And if she misinterprets me or turns out to be wrong for me, then yeah, as you guys say, at least I'll KNOW that I'm alone instead of assuming it.

... or, umm, instead of living in the fantasy of what I hope she is like.

Ugh.

It's so weird to come back and read what I wrote here - I feel like a different person to last week, I don't feel connected to that anger and distrust at all. As I approached my session today I felt all that recede, and although it was in the back of my head that I SHOULD talk about all this, it just sort of slipped away, and I knew I couldn't.

But the session felt really important somehow. I was keeping to work/life/schedule stuff because I didn't want to go near the other things, and she just worked with me on that, but somehow it became very intimate. I told her that I didn't feel like I could trust myself with my most cherished (creative) work aims, and she said very quietly "eye contact Jones, it IS possible and I am going to hold that for you. I have it and I am going to hold it until next week." The eye contact thing... sometimes she has a way of slipping things in with no emphasis at all as though she's not really saying them, it has the strangest effect.

So then she asked how that felt and I said it felt good not to be alone with it, and then she left ALL this silence and I sat there feeling sadder and sadder, and then uncomfortable... which she said we will talk about next week.

I'm guessing the other stuff will come up one way or another then. Some part of me cannot help but trust her really deeply. And another part doesn't know what the hell is going on. For now I just really hope she knows what she is doing as much as she seems to.

Jones, thank you for sharing that intimate experience. Even from this cyber distance I can feel goosebumps by imagining myself in your shoes. I really hope you can hold onto it until next week. It is really neat that your T is so attuned to you and that she has your trust. I hope you can hold onto the trust as well, because if you are like me then the doubts will start crowding in to rob you of the memory of being heard and understood. I wish you well from now until your next appointment!

hey blackbird - pretty name - it's nice to meet you. you're not interrupting at all; it's great to see another person on the board. how do you find it working with your t electronically?

jones

Hi Blackbird!
Welcome to the forums! I'm really glad that you've found someplace where you feel like you fit in. It's a great community and can really provide a lot of support. I must admit, that I am with Jones, I would love to hear how the remote therapy is working for you!

AG

Soafter reading these last couple of posts from blackbird I am wondering how do you get started with this kind of counseling? Online counseling might work out for me with my scheduling issues. What are the fees like and how do you get started with this type of therapy?

Hi lilangel02 and welcome to the forums! I just wanted to let you know that there are links for obtaining online counseling here on Myshrink.

Live counselors

I don't know much about it because I've never used it, but there's a lot of good info on this page and should be a good place to start.

AG

Hi Blackbird - no need for an apology! I haven't updated because I'm just feeling confused and disconnected from my T. She said we would talk about the uncomfortable silence last time, but we didn't - she forgot. I guess it wasn't a great day for her - she was yawning, didn't seem present.

When I saw that I thought "$%&#^! I'm boring her! I better pull out some stops..." and I tried to bring up how angry I'd been. I said that I'd been really upset last time after talking about that special relationship. Instead of getting that I'd been angry with her, she said "are you telling me that talking about it makes it hurt more?" and I got confused, waylaid, that was the end of that. I talked more about the 'fantasy relationship' thing and that it HADN'T been, she sort of agreed, sort of qualified what she meant, but still didn't get that I'd been angry.

Anyway, I'm so sick of not being able to say this stuff directly, so I tried writing a letter, and said more. I emailed the clinic to ask her if it would be ok to send a letter via attachment, but didn't hear back. And now I've kind of lost my nerve.

Part of the problem is that there's been a significant change in my therapy over the six months. We started with some family stuff and some discussion of trauma, she made attempts to talk directly about our relationship, some mention of attachment issues, all quite intense and I felt very overwhelmed. She floated the idea of EMDR in the new year.

And then she backed right off all that stuff. If I bring up family history she touches it very lightly and moves on. No mention of the EMDR. We focus on work & schedule stuff. I don't know if this is because a) she's decided actually I've processed that stuff enough and don't need to dwell on it any more; or b)I made a few mentions of really wanting my creative work to be in motion, so wants to get that sorted before dealing with the other stuff; or c) she doesn't think I want that kind of therapy; or d) she isn't actually skilled at that kind of therapy, or e) she doesn't want to overwhelm me, or f) she's just forgotten!

So I really identify with your comment that you "can't understand why he wouldn't spell this stuff out". It's kind of yuck, I feel like quitting too, because I just feel too confused. I feel like it should be so easy just to ask what's going on, but the thought makes me feel like an obsessive idiot. Like ok, I spend all this time reading message boards about how therapy should be, so I have this inflated & dramatic idea about what to expect or want and actually what I/we are doing is just simpler and I should settle. And I should just get on with things.... which, now that I've posted this screed, I will try to do!!

Thanks for asking - sorry about the brain-dump!

Jones

Hi Jones
Excuse me butting in to this coversation, i haven't posted before , but was interested in what you were saying about how your sessions were going.I have decided after several years of therapy that Ts seem to rarely give feedback as to where you are progress wise - it seems up to us to work it out and then pluck up courage to ask if we can't work it out. For some reason that seems really hard for me to do, so I just tend to think a lot about what I would like to ask, but never do. Maybe I am scared of what I might hear! Hope you might be braver than me . . .

Hi starfish,
I wanted to say welcome to the forums! I also wanted to urge you to speak up about your feelings and questions to your T. How your T sees your question is a completely legitimate question to ask your T. You may not get a straight answer mind you especially if your T believes that the only way for you to believe in your progress is to see it for yourself and that hearing it won't really work long term. But it's OK to ask. Actually it should be ok to say ANYTHING in therapy, that's the point. That you have a safe place to be able to express all of yourself and be met with acceptance and not have to fear being sent away. My T has a saying to describe therapy, that it's a place where you're safe enough to feel scared. It's going towards those fears and being as honest as we are capable of at any given time that allow us to grow and heal. I'm looking forward to getting to know you.

AG

Hi Starfish, Hi AG...
It's amazing how hard it can be just to ask simple, straightforward questions. I get away with not doing it because I can 'cope' without it. Not knowing won't send me into any crisis or anything. It just makes me sad & disconnected & dissatisfied.... I'm going to try again this week. Wish me luck.

Hi AG and Jones
Thank you for your welcome! AG you are so right,I do think my T just waits for me to work everything out always for myself rather than hear it from her first because when I do it myself it's far more helpful. But it's hard. I can seem to ask questions about almost anything except for how I'm doing.

Jones I wish you luck and courage in asking your questions this week. I hope you get some helpful answers.

Hi Jones, SG, starfish, AG & blackbird

Blackbird -

quote:

For my part, I now know enough at least how to treat my kids exactly the way I wish my T would treat me, which is also very painful to try and do because often my heart just isn't in it.

This is what I try to do too for my two kids. I personally find it very hard to simultaneously be an adult / wife / mother whilst my own inner child is crying out and saying "why didn't I get this kind of love and attention" when I was little. It's like being a parent makes you re-experience your own raw childhood over and over again.

I'm OK

Hey, thanks for the good wishes and encouragement, Blackbird. My session's tomorrow - I feel just a bit hostile at the moment but if I don't want these sessions to continue to be miserable I need to turn that into SAYING what I feel instead of following the impulse to withhold. It is interesting to notice, though, that that's what I do when I'm feeling rejected and angry. It seems like switching off, holding back, going away is the only way to get my sense of self and security back. And dammit it works... some of the time... but not here.

I'm OK, I really get what you & Blackbird are saying about being with kids. I don't have any - too chicken, partly because I'm scared of that neediness. I notice this pattern with my husband - I often find him needy and I veer from being all motherly to switching off, cold. NOT great. And yes, in both responses it's the little child inside reacting with need & frustration. Slowly learning to focus more on me rather than living in his head, and this seems to help somehow.

J

Thanks Blackbird! My session went really nicely today! I had sent that boundary-testing email ("can I send you an email?") then made myself forget it because I got no response. But she brought it up today and so I said that really I had wanted some kind of overview, that I was feeling a bit lost with where we were.

So she gave me some overview.... I'm not sure exactly what she said, but I got more of a sense of how the scheduling stuff we're doing (I write down how I spend every hour) connects to my background. I can't make sense of it now... I just know we touched on the violence & emotional abuse stuff from my adolescence again and I realized she hadn't forgotten or dismissed that stuff, though I pretty much thought she had. I can't hold very well for myself that it WAS violence and emotional abuse, so it makes a big difference.

And I know she told me that she wants me to be able to ask for an overview when I need one. She understood why I need it... she gave me this image, that I bob around in this sea of abstract thinking, find it hard to get bearings, but if things get TOO concrete I go under. So I need a lot of movement between both. It felt totally right.

Still couldn't approach the big breach I felt in being so angry about the 'fantasy relationship' comments, but I feel like we are slowly repairing that - even though I don't think she knows about it. Maybe if we keep going I'll be able to address that.

quote:

Hey, thanks for the good wishes and encouragement, Blackbird. My session's tomorrow - I feel just a bit hostile at the moment but if I don't want these sessions to continue to be miserable I need to turn that into SAYING what I feel instead of following the impulse to withhold. It is interesting to notice, though, that that's what I do when I'm feeling rejected and angry. It seems like switching off, holding back, going away is the only way to get my sense of self and security back. And dammit it works... some of the time... but not here.

Jones, this sounds familiar. I am feeling hostile right now, mostly about the boundaries though. But even though I can express it here on the forum, I hold back when I am in session. The anger just goes temporarily underground. It's not like I consciously try to block it out. Last session I actually did the opposite; I consciously tried to hold onto the anger, but I only retained a piece of it. I think I must be afraid to feel anger in her presence - afraid the consequences will be disastrous.

quote:

I had sent that boundary-testing email ("can I send you an email?") then made myself forget it because I got no response.

I am wondering why your T shares her email address if you are told not to use it? You wrote in the Struggling with Boundaries in therapy thread that there is a strict no-contact-between-sessions rule. Ouch! That would kill me. I am not one who wants to constantly harass my T (and I can tell you definitely aren't either), but being told NO under any circumstances seems cold and uncaring. On the other hand, if you have tested this boundary and it holds firm, might that help to squelch the temptation? My T has not shared her email, but she has allowed letters by snail mail, texts, and "emergency only calls". I have never called her, but I have sent a few letters and texts. Still, each time I have made an inter-session contact I've worried that I am bothering her and it will negatively affect our relationship. It is a constant internal battle to police myself in this matter, which I guess is a result of more generous boundaries.

Hi MH,
"The anger just goes temporarily underground. It's not like I consciously try to block it out."

Yeah, I know... at this stage I guess for us there's not much choice involved here. I believe as our relationships with our Ts continue (assuming all is well) we will get to feel safer on deeper levels, beyond conscious choice, and the feelings will become available of their own accord. And in the meantime we work on bringing what we can and working towards that sense of attunement.

The email address I have is for the admin staff at the practice, where multiple Ts work. If I send an email asking for a change in time, they check it with her and get back to me - so there really is no direct contact!

Yes, it does feel like a kind of relief to have tested the boundary and found it firm. Like, I don't have to think about that now. All I need to think about is how to communicate in session. It might take longer than writing a letter, but it is the work we need to do.

Incidentally she told me the reason it was a 'no' is because she couldn't guarantee my confidentiality if stuff was going through the admin staff, and so she wasn't comfortable with it. So it didn't feel so uncaring.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
I guess for us there's not much choice involved here. I believe as our relationships with our Ts continue (assuming all is well) we will get to feel safer on deeper levels, beyond conscious choice, and the feelings will become available of their own accord. And in the meantime we work on bringing what we can and working towards that sense of attunement.

I am often struck by your insight, J. When I read this, I just relaxed a bit and thought, "Yeah, she's right, the fear is going to work itself out one day, and I can't wait until it happens - when it feels safe to be 100% completely honest!"

Thanks for explaining about the email. That makes sense now, especially about the confidentiality. But what about texts? Why is that banned? Do you have her wireless number so you can test that boundary? I am bad!

Hi MH - so glad what I wrote helped you connect with a little bit of relaxation, that's so nice. I have a lot of faith that we will get there. I know we are committed enough to this process to be hanging out on this board and feeling all the struggle - that commitment is going to get us through.

As for texts - nope, no wireless number. The website tells you that your T is "generally not available outside session", that communication is to go through the admin staff, and anything you're uncomfortable telling the admin staff is stuff that should be dealt with in session.

It's so perfectly crystal clear and solid that I wouldn't dare ask about that one....

For the moment I'm back to being a Good Girl, but I think at some point I'm going to have to find other ways to test!! Let me know if you find something that works nicely.


J

Hi Jones and MH,

Uuummm, I have something to say about expressing feelings but I'm afraid you're going to want to use the HTML slapper on me. And what I'm about to say was true for me but that doesn't necessarily make it so for either of you, so take this with a grain of salt.

Waiting until you feel safe to speak up is doing it backwards (or at least it was for me!). It was speaking up despite the fear that made me feel safer. We learned not to express our feelings the hard way, by having them ignored at best, or punished at worst. Either way our needs weren't met and we weren't taught how to handle those emotions. So we stopped expressing them because it always led to pain. This is learned on a very deep level, often pre-verbal, so of course it's scary to talk about your feelings. But the part of your mind that is scared doesn't change because you intellectually recognize these facts. It's not about knowing. It's about feeling. So the process for me was about walking into the fear. speaking despite being terrified, and then being stunned that not only did nothing bad happen, something good did. Moving towards another person, expressing my feelings and being heard, made me feel better! Go figure! And it would get just a tiny little bit safer. Rinse and repeat 1000 times and you convince you're amygdala that it really isn't dangerous to express your feelings. I often went to sessions so scared I couldn't speak in the beginning. One thing I found that really helped was to tell my T I was scared to tell him how I felt. That it felt like I would be in trouble or be sent away if I did. That way I could be reassured BEFORE I actually expressed the feeling. I hope this helps.

It's a difficult, confusing process to learn to go towards someone when everything in you is screaming not to expose yourself. My T calls it the hellish bind and says that it's what makes healing from these kinds of injuries so horrible. The very thing you need to do to get better is the very thing that feels the most dangerous for you to do.

Jones, I'm sorry about your T's contact policy. My T has a very liberal contact policy mainly because he said it was important for me to be able to go towards him when I needed to. But he's also really good about setting his boundaries so he doesn't get burnt out and I know that not all Ts are comfortable with contact between sessions.


AG

Oh, AG... if you weren't so evidently wonderful I'd look for a way to discount what you are saying here. As it is I want to get through these limitations and end up with as much to share as you have - you are a great inspiration, curse it all.

The fear is so insidious in that for me it comes encased in so much comfortable habit, and a certain resourcefulness that allows me to survive without going where I'm afraid of. I think we all have this resourcefulness, to our fear's delight.

But here's what's happening for me right now - excuse the digression, I'm going to see if I can link it up later:
Someone has quite suddenly sprung onto my work scene that I'm having a massive transference-type reaction to. He's offering and providing the kind of mentorship that I have been quietly crying out for and deeply mourning the lack of for many years. He seems like a 'safe' person; the energy is primarily grandfatherly. But *very* connected, very sudden, so close to my felt NEED, and of course without any of the structural boundaries that come packaged up with therapy. Weirdly enough he told an anecdote about therapeutic transference at lunch the other day, just in passing conversation. You can imagine the silent paroxysms went through me.

I am veering hour by hour from huge happiness and energy for my work to freaked out frozenness. There are worse things that could happen to a person.

But I need my T to help me through this, I need to be able to trust her and to not have the shadow of that former disruption lurking, because I need her help to be able to keep my head and protect myself and the gains I've made lately with my husband. So if I want that there's a sense in which I don't have time to wait till I feel safe.

But I don't see her again until Wednesday. I hope I can open it up then. But AG your thing about saying you feel scared before speaking seems like it could really help. I think I am going to try that.

Hi monte & AG

In case you haven't worked it out yet, I find it SO HARD to express myself which is why I cut & paste so much on these boards.

monte -

quote:

I want a 100% water-tight guarantee that he will respond perfectly, according to my needs. I won't get that...from anyone, because noone can deliver that level of perfection. Noone is going to undo my past or give me satisfactory compensation.

But it's about trust right? The first seed of trust is the act of trust. How can I trust them if I'm not willing to commit the act of trust. They can't prove they are trustworthy until I give them the opportunity.

monte, it's so true which is why what AG says below makes complete sense (which is a relief until you and I realise that we actually have to walk into our T's office and spill the beans and express all those yucky feelings )

AG -

quote:

Waiting until you feel safe to speak up is doing it backwards. It was speaking up despite the fear that made me feel safer. It's not about knowing. It's about feeling. So the process for me was about walking into the fear. speaking despite being terrified, and then being stunned that not only did nothing bad happen, something good did. Moving towards another person, expressing my feelings and being heard, made me feel better! Go figure! And it would get just a tiny little bit safer. Rinse and repeat 1000 times and you convince you're amygdala that it really isn't dangerous to express your feelings.

I think I'm finally willing to give what AG says a try b/c I'm sick of carrying this stuff around - and am so proud of AG for moving on to the next step.

AG - Speaking of which, how did you move on - and I guess finally accept - knowing that will never have as much of your T as you wanted (ie: equal friendship)? Was that the biggest thing you have to give up in order to move forward?

Cheers!
I'm OK

PS - Monte, I'm a Melbourne girl! Don't know whether you are happy to disclose your location but I'm obviously asking b/c I'm a tad curious!! You don't have to answer though if you don't want to!

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
One thing I found that really helped was to tell my T I was scared to tell him how I felt. That it felt like I would be in trouble or be sent away if I did. That way I could be reassured BEFORE I actually expressed the feeling. I hope this helps.

I just wanted to report that I tried this yesterday at my session and I think it worked! I told my T I couldn't actually feel my anger in that moment (because it starts to evaporate in her presence), but that I knew I was angry underneath. I asked her if it was really OK to say anything I wanted to during sessions. She said she thought it was interesting that I would need to ask her that, but she encouraged me. So I read out loud some angry feelings I had journaled earlier in the week. Instead of it offending her, she was completely non-defensive. Instead of her moving away from me or hating me, she responded by moving closer. I ended up arranging to increase the frequency of our sessions without feeling shamed for it, and we also ended the session with a rare long hug! And I felt that she meant it, too! I am trying to test this new hypothesis, that she will wait to move closer until I make the first move to risk trusting her, but that when I do she does reward me for it. So AG, maybe you are right. But like you said, rinse and repeat 1000 times just to make sure to erase those continually resurfacing doubts!

Hi MH
I'm quite new here too but just want to say well done to you for being brave enough to trust yourself and your T in the way you did last session and am so pleased it worked out so well. Only 999 more times to keep doing it to be really sure!!

Hi MH

Well done on trying something new - and hard - and reaping some positive rewards for doing so.

I'm OK

Hey, congratulations, MH, that is wonderful. I like the sound of your hypothesis. How great would it be to feel like you can choose the closeness, and have some control over it, and have her react reliably!

You worked hard to get to this step closer - I hope you are giving yourself a big pat on the back.

Thanks guys! I love how you are here to give support whether its a good day or a bad one. It feels really nice to be able to share a good one with you for once.

MH, I hope I will gather that kind of courage one day.
I suppose you found some way, so maybe it would be good to try following it...
But I think that the things I need to say are more scary.
I suppose therapist are always very glad and happy when we manage to express and talk about the most difficult and scary feelings. That this is what they want for us in therapy.
But still... I can't convince myself, that all the feelings are ok, and even if I'm almost sure they are I still don't know how to tell about them. Sometimes I wonder, is it the language bareer or what?

Keep practising. It's so wonderful to see them moving closer.

Hi blackbird (can I call you bb?) & Amazon

blackbird - good luck for your upcoming session. Let us know how you are going. We are all here for you.

I'm OK

MH,
That is so awesome that you were able to do that!! And I'm glad it turned out so well for you. OK, only 999 more times to go.

AG

So, I FINALLY did it... finally got to the point today where I had the conversation I've been wanting to have for, oh, (checking beginning of thread) 28 days....

I really wish I could report that it was a wonderful reuniting but that's not how I feel. Then again I'm having a tough day, with lots of other really demanding stuff going on - so pardon me while I debrief....

T wanted to do this two-chair thing to work on what is apparently my 'self-interruptive split'. She just jumped in without checking out my week or anything. I started to go with her but at some point I just couldn't go any further, at every pause I was just thinking about how mad I've been and how disconnected I feel and how she didn't notice. I thought about all the great successes here and the great advice, and I started in with "Do you mind if we take a sidetrack? There's something I want to talk about, but it's really hard." And then I just kept my head down and told her how I'd been angry, and exactly what she'd said, and how I didn't understand what she meant or where she was coming from when she said those things, and that it was making it hard to really do the work.

I think she was quite shocked when she got the details. Her first reaction was "If I hurt your feelings, I'm very sorry. VERY sorry." I can hear her voice now - the first line was defensive, almost snippy. And then "VERY sorry" was firm and genuine, like she was correcting herself.

We talked it through quite a bit. I got to say some things that I needed to say - how I don't have any way of knowing where she's coming from or what her beliefs or values are. She suggested it didn't matter because my values were what counted - but I pointed out that hers would determine the way she responds, whether she thinks something is healthy or problematic, and that because I have mixed feelings about certain things that are both healthy AND problematic, and I get confused at times, how she responds is important.

She understood. As we went on she was warmer and more relaxed, referred to herself as an 'elephant' trampling my feelings, and I felt better for having got it out there and that we were at least on the same page again.

But I also feel like I've seen her limits in some way. I don't know how much she can help me because I now have this sense of being, in that interaction, close to the limit of what she can handle.

And her limits and my transference seem to be sitting on top of one another. I mean, not that I have transference or anything (cough), but I did have this weird sensation today of her face kind of flashing into my mother's for a few seconds. My mum wasn't so competent at looking after us.

At one point today after I'd said all the initial stuff the silence was agony. She'd said 'is there anything else you want me to say to repair the rupture'? and I said I didn't think there was anything she COULD say. Eventually I couldn't bear it any more, I looked straight at her and said 'It's okay, I know the way I took it was not the way you meant it.' And she told me I was saying it was ok but I looked quite hostile. That was how I felt... the sensation was really familiar, like 'ok, we have to move on, you're not up to the task of helping me feel better so I'll just f*&%king take care of it myself'.

I feel like... okay, I could go digging for the source of that feeling, but really, if it's right through your childhood where do you start? and how much good would it do, even if I could find it?

Sorry to be a downer... I know I'll find a way through this and I'm really really really glad I don't have to THINK about saying that stuff anymore. Who knows where this will lead. Thanks for listening and for the encouragement to speak.

Jones,
I really do hope that you can repair the connection with your T. I hear that you still feel let down by her and she still didn't do enough to bring you back.
I don't know how much it takes, but maybe it needs to take few sessions to straighten things out, to feel again that you can trust her and she understands you. Maybe it just takes a bit more time. I'm trying to tell what I would hope for myself if I would go into the breach with my T.
I realize my T is not perfect either. I sometimes feel like he is so fake, like he tries his best, but I'm not buying this, I don't believe him... But then I panic and I want to run to him in my thoughts, I don't want to stay without him, I need him. It is so confusing this relationship, sometimes I just don't want to believe him. Then I go back in my memory to some other moments when he was so much with me, and I wonder, that I did allow him to be with me, and I allowed myself to be with him and I want to hold on to this real moments.
Jones, I hope this confusing and distant period in your therapy relationship will pass away, that you and your T will be able to put it behind and be together again. I believe you just need to let her know how pissed off and disappointed she made you.
I'm so confused myself about everything, everything everything...

(((((((Jones)))))))

Thank you for telling us about this! I know you are feeling bad about the way your T responded – more about that in a minute – but the first thing I want to say is WAY TO GO for asserting yourself and asking for what you need! That is HUGE. And extra points, extra credit, extra kudos for having to practically interrupt her in order to do it. I am WAY impressed with what you did, and I hope you can see how important this was. It counts as just as much of a success as any of the other stories on this board right now!

But I know it is hard to see it that way when your T’s response was prickly. That is SO disappointing, even if she corrected herself afterwards. It is SO important that she not take your feelings personally so that she can help you learn what your feelings are saying about you in the context of your therapy. I know she’s human, and I can understand why she felt bad, BUT she should have kept that out of the room and kept focused on your needs. If she had done that, then you both could have talked about what this reminded you of – how you could not rely on your mum. And that’s where the therapy needs to go! That is where you need some healing.

By allowing herself to respond in a prickly way, she missed the opportunity to help you. You even felt like you had to try to make her feel better by saying it’s okay, you probably took it wrong...just like you probably had to make your mum feel better sometimes too, right? And it sounds like your T went along with this a little bit by saying you looked “hostile” instead of simply “angry”...again, that’s her taking your feelings personally.

I am hoping that between now and next time you meet, she will take a closer look at her reaction and reign in her stuff, so that she can bring the focus back to you and your therapy, so you can do some healing regarding your relationship with your mum. It sounds like she caught herself to some extent today, so maybe this has a good chance of being repairable. This is a chance for HER to be changed by YOU, for her to grow a little more and be the T you need. You deserve that so much, especially when you took such a huge and scary step to be heard!

Pat on the back...handshake...HIGH FIVE, Jones!!!

SG

Thank you so much Amazon & Strummergirl. I think it will just take some time to move forward from here but I feel more grounded. Like whatever happens from here at least I'm being MYSELF now. And I feel like I was just getting further and further away before.

I'm scared - she has six years of experience, and I wanted someone more experienced, have had some really mediocre experiences with new therapists before and I just want to not have to worry about whether she knows what she is doing. It feels like it will be extremely difficult to really work with this issue in therapy, because what therapist wouldn't be triggered by a client questioning their competence? And where is there to go if she has these limitations? Do I take myself out of it?

I am happy that I got what I needed to say out there though. It feels much more real, and like a new starting point.

Jones, my therapist is also not the most experienced one - 4 years only and not quite established practice yet. So at times I would have doubts, but he seems to know what he's doing. On the other hand I think that someone more experienced maybe would be more open, less defensive because would be less afraid of mishandling boundaries, self-disclosure and these kind of things. While somebody fairly new must be more causious of different issues. I don't really know if he is being defensive or not. On the other hand maybe someone with less experience wants to give so much more, then a therapist with 40 clients hanging of him?
I love him so much, but I'm so afraid that he will do or say something that will hurt so much. That he will do something and I will just loose all my trust.

How long are you with your T? I believe whatever her limitations are she is willing to and working to overcome them.

Hi Jones! Just wondering how it's been going with your T since the breakthrough you made...thinking of you!