I would be very hurt and jealous if I was in your situation and I have been but that was back when I was like 19/20 and my best friend basically dropped me for a new best friend whom had the gravitational pull of the sun since I rarely saw my best friend alone after that. We eventually drifted apart because my friend was completely wrapped up in this new person and never seemed to be able to see me alone anymore and her new friend and I just didn't click well enough to make it a threesome friendship. That was almost 20 years ago I still miss her sometimes. I don't even remember the last time I talked to her but I still think of her fondly but with sadness every so often. Believe me, I tried to keep the friendship going and I even tried to be friends with the new girl but my hurt and jealousy and anger and pride made me eventually give up. Your situation is especially difficult since you and your friend have been close for so long. 20 years! That is a tried and true friendship I would like to believe. Maybe when the "honeymoon" period between your friend and his boyfriend cools down then you will have more time with him alone but that initial attraction to a lover is powerfully strong and intoxicating and it sounds like your friend won't be able to see the forest for the trees for a while. You can wait it out with as much love and patience and grace as you can muster, trying to be happy for your friend or you can throw a huge fit and walk away or maybe do a little of both. But I think you are realizing that things are not going to be like they were for a while, perhaps for a long while, so as much as it sucks to hear, now is the time for you to probably give your friend some time and space by branching out yourself and pursuing closer friendships with others in your life. I regret that I completely dropped my best friend and stopped talking to her because I felt that was what she was doing to me but I didn't know any better way to handle the pain at the time. Being older and wiser now, I treasure true friendships so much more because of their rarity and try to be as loving and flexible and as understanding with them as I would like my friends to me with me.

Thanks, River, that is excellent advice. But what about the inappropriateness of a 44-year old going out with a 19/20 year old?

Since this kid is Muslim, he will NEVER be out. If his father found out he would literally kill him - no joke. He is over here from Kuwait studying, but when I met him, he barely speaks English, so he can't be studying much.

Sadly, this is the first time Eric has been in love and loved back. But when this ends, will this start a precedent for Eric - will he start cruising the colleges looking for the next boy?

I am going to do my best to distance myself from him, even though he is in my thoughts constantly.

Well, Holly,

Not to be rude, but perhaps you forgot your meds today???

There is always a flip-side to the relevant advice/encouragement that River gives and the others.

I'd love to dignify your first comments with a response, but it is not worth my time.

I will accept the apology from your second post. Perhaps you should think before you write.

Have a good day.

Again, thanks River for your encouragement. It helped a lot.

Hi Spagirl,
I just wanted to say that I can understand you being upset if for no other reason than that you're friend make you a promise in answer to a specific question you asked about plans, that Ricky wouldn't be going and then changed his mind and expected you to be fine about it. I wouldn't care if he was dating a racoon, I still think he treated you poorly and in an inconsiderate manner.

I do think that taking a look at your feelings for him would probably be worth your time, or at least examining why you have had such a long term intimate relationship with a man where there was no chance of sexual/romantic involvement? I dated a guy in HS, my first love actually, who was struggling with his sexuality and ended up deciding that he was gay. It's complicated having a relationship with someone who can be an object of your sexual desires but who will not feel the same way back. Having said all that, I don't think it's impossible for a woman to have a friendship with a gay man, it's just that you're describing a very deep, close relationship and you're having a difficult time with his new relationship. But again, I want to emphasize that I don't think he's behaving all that well. I've always had a problem with people who dump their friends for a new romantic interest. We all get the headiness of new love, but your friends still need to be treated with consideration and respect.

Hi Hollybaby, this obviously hit a nerve for both of you, but I have to wonder that you are so quick to see prejudice that you can see NO wrong in how a gay man is behaving. I'm sorry, but I would have a problem with a 44 year old woman dating an 18 year old man, or for that matter a 44 year old heterosexual man dating an 18 year old girl. That kind of disparity in age and maturity level is an indication that a person is probably trying to fulfill other unresolved needs. And yeah, I'm sorry, but it's creepy being sexually involved with someone more than young enough to be your son. There's a guy at my office who is 22 years younger than me and we're good friends, really hit it off with each other, and he's a very attractive young man. But thinking of him that way feels really out of bounds to me. So I don't care if they're straight, gay, lesbian, transgendered or ocelots, that kind of age difference should set off alarms.

And last but not least, I would be upset if someone I loved got involved with someone who would always have to hide their relationship from his family. And especially a family that might perhaps react violently if they discovered the secret. He could literally be endangering himself through this relationship. I think it merits a little concern.

So I think there are a lot of valid viewpoints, and a lot of different ways of looking at this. But when someone is looking for support with feelings they're struggling with, I'm not sure that immediately criticizing them for their thoughts and feelings is really what we're aiming for. We all need to exercise patience and forbearance with each other. People who post here come from a lot of different backgrounds, and different beliefs and we need to understand that there will be issues we won't agree on.

AG

I suppose that's what happens when you ask for an opinion, you might actually get an honest, straight forward one ~ it was just that, an opinion. If a person cannot accept other people's 'opinions' then perhaps they shouldn't be asking the general population for one!

AG I see your side of everything as well, and though I don't agree with you and "I" felt that you were being indirectly patronizing to me, I am not likely to tell you to go take your med's or to think before you write (as SG eloquently suggested I do). I accept that you have a differing opinion and I can move on - unlike others.

I deleted my 'opinions' so that no one else is bothered by them. But in the future I suggest that if you don't want to have some of the differing/challenging OPINIONS from people here .. then you shouldn't ask for them in a general forum. I think that's what PMing is for

To me personally it is disturbing when a young adult dates or marries an older mid age plus person. I guess because like AG said it is indicative of unresolved "issues" probably for both parties.

As you know though it's not illegal. So there's not a lot anyone can do about it.

Hi Hollybaby,
I'm sorry that you felt like I was being patronizing; I know that I hate it when I feel like someone is being patronizing to me. May I ask what made you feel that way so I can understand what I did? I would really appreciate it, thanks.

As far as debate and opinions, I do believe that there is a place for disagreement but first and foremost, I see these forums as a place to look for emotional support and insight into dealing with what we're dealing with. And honestly, when I read your response (which you deleted) the first time, I thought that I would have felt very attacked. Which is why I think Spagirl attacked back, since that's what most of us do when we feel attacked. It's also really easy to mistake someone's intentions and feelings when you're only reading print, so I think it's important to exercise a lot of care when we're responding.

What I love about these forums, first and foremost, is that there is such a high level of acceptance and support and I think that needs to extend to people we disagree with also. I honestly find it pretty upsetting when I read the kind of exchange that took place between you and Spagirl. If anyone, most certainly, including you, feels like they're going to be attacked for speaking up, this becomes a not safe place which I would hate.

So I don't want to anyone feeling like they can't speak, I just want us to exercise a lot of care and consideration when we do so.

AG

AG, you have such a way with words. I agree with everything you've said.

Opinions are fine and very welcome, but choice of words is as equally as important as the freedom to give those opinions.

I too would be upset if a friend of mine was dating a 19 year old - that is just way too young IMHO. And, if a 19-year-old was interested in me, I am confident that there is no way I would return that interest. And I would be upset that after 20 years of close friendship, I would be brushed aside. There's also a difference between making your significant other your number one priority and shutting out everyone else.

OW

Since this is coming up A LOT, I will address it. (and not just here, my Mom, Eric's long-time straight male friend, lots of people wonder why we don't "do it".)

Eric and I became friends slowly. He worked with me in 1991 and soon went off to pursue a second career. We have never lived in the same town. Our friendship started when he would invite me to join him and his friends (he always has a lot of people around him - and none of them were gay, btw. - neither was he at this point.). I would always go to the various events and would have fun. Over time he and I found many things in common. He didn't have a friend like me who enjoyed getting dressed up for the theatre or shared his appreciation of fine wine and gourmet foods; and I got the best of both worlds, I could be comfortable being one of the guys, hanging out, taking boating trips, etc. and I had a friend who could accompany me to the more sophisticated pursuits. We weren't "best" friends overnight. But over the course of these past 17 years, we leaned on each other more and more, and for one thing, have never had a fight.

To answer the why don't we "date" questions. It's simple. I was never attracted to him, and he never gave me the impression that he was attracted to me. (Even tho. my ego sort of assumed he had a crush on me ) We're more like family. So, yes, men and women CAN have a deep, meaningful FRIENDSHIP with each other where the idea of physicality isn't present. He also keeps deep, meaningful relationships with his other long-time friends, who are straight men.

He wasn't gay all those years, either. He had a girlfriend while he was away and he dated women all through the 1990's, sporadically, but he never dated men.

That's why this situation is so multifaceted. It's hard to explain the WHOLE situation because it is so layered. This is not a simple, "he didn't take me on the trip, he took Ricky" issue. It's not black and white. It's not from elementary school. It's not that my ego is bruised. It's that my friend has changed. He has hung a LEFT and I don't want to walk down that path with him anymore ... I want to go STRAIGHT. To post a pun.

Eric was as shocked as the rest of us when Ricky charmed him. I told Eric then that someone needs to be the adult here - and guess who that should have been ... Eric! But, Eric has made a decision to venture into this fantasy. It gives him an arena where he doesn't have to face the responsibilities of adult life. He can see the world through a child's eyes again. I understand why Eric is doing this, and I AM happy that he is having a loving experience. But, like all situations where the best friend drops you for their new lover, I have to think of what is right for my best interests. I have come to the conclusion that to distance myself is the right thing for me to do and I will be pursuing other social activities with some new people (something I should have been doing all along, but was comfortable with just having Eric as my source of entertainment - and everything else, except the physical).



Thank you AG for addressing the age issue. It is a red flag, and a BIG ONE! Even on a comedy show they were saying how it's okay to date someone younger. Here is their calculation: divide your age in half, then add seven - you don't date anyone younger than that! So that means at 44, Eric (and I) shouldn't date anyone younger than 29. He's gone about a decade too young even for comedy standards! And, yes, it does speak VOLUMES about what else is going on in this man's head.

AG - right on point. It took Eric soo long to come out COMPLETELY. To not fear the repercussions. When Eric and I talked about the kind of partners we want for each other, he always said he wanted a younger person, someone to mentor. But he didn't want someone who acts or looks gay since he doesn't. I was thinking of someone more of a peer. An intelligent, maybe 35 year old. But that would make it an adult relationship and Eric is obviously stuck somewhere in his past and isn't capable of that (yet?). So for him to be out and proud while sneaking off with this BOY, yes boy, it just goes against everything Eric believes. This kid can't even let his schoolmates know. So as they go out and do things together, what does Eric say when someone inquires who this boy is? It makes me think that he digs the hiding and secretiveness of the whole affair. Makes it that much kinkier.

A word to Holly: Yes, you did seem to come on attack and that's why I left you with a little zinger. It seemed your comments were more about you than trying to help someone else. But, I don't think you should have deleted them. If that's how you feel, then say it. I don't have to be comforted by your words, nor do I have to engage in a fight or debate with you. You have every right to say what's on your mind, so post them again, if you like.


This is such a controversial and thought-provoking situation. I am starting to get a healthier perspective on it, though.

I think, because of my failures at dating (and, believe me, I have been trying), and because Eric and I are so alike, that I let him become the be all, end all support system to me. Have a question, call Eric. Mom upset you, call Eric. Need a vacation partner, call Eric.

I think, now that I've calmed down from the shock, I've realized that this is probably going to be a good thing for us both. I needed to get out of his orbit and do more things with local people, discover some new territories of my own, and he is finally living with his heart and not his head - which for Eric is a big deal - he has a scientific mind and never could understand emotions. So this kid is doing Eric a huge service. What the outcome will be, who knows. The first thing out of most mouths is "It will never last." But, who's to say? For the time being, Eric is living out a fantasy and is blissfully happy. Good for him. I'll save my judgments and analyzation for after the play.

Catgirl,
I'm really trying to ask this respectfully and not to throw gasoline on the fire, but I am bothered by something. I find your reaction here interesting in that we shouldn't be painting a whole people or being prejudiced against all Muslims but it was ok to talk that way about Christians?

Fun with Fundamentalist Christianity

No one seemed very concerned about the need to only discuss your own feelings or not apply broad stereotypes when it was Christianity being painted in a bad light. But make it Muslims and gay men and suddenly the behavior is out of bounds?

I was actually pretty bothered by that whole thread but I respected that people were speaking about very difficult experiences where religion was misused (and I believe practiced in a way not true to the teachings of the faith). Behavior that I was horrified by and understood how damaging it was. But I've known a lot of fundamentalist Christians who were good, loving, understanding, compassionate people, and it grieves me to see what I believe is a distorted stereotype applied across a broad swath of people. But I decided not to speak up because I didn't want to invalidate someone's else's experience or pain.

I agree with your larger point that really we should be looking to our feelings and our behavior because those are the things that ARE under our control and that we can change. I just wish the same sensitivity was applied when it wasn't your ox being gored.

I realize that I may just be reacting defensively but the juxtaposition really does bother me.

AG

PS I am glad to hear you're feeling better.

AG,

Point taken.

This:

"OMG, (oops, did I use the Lord's name in vain, I better repent or else. Maybe it doesn't count cuz its initials. But, it's the thought that counts, so I better repent.)" (which I said) was definitely taking it too far, and I apologize for that, especially if anyone was offended, which is likely. It was supposed to be funny, but I can see that it was definitely a cut-down, and I shouldn't have said it.

Other than that, there is nothing that I said that I can see that was against any religion.

I said this: "I only have a few minutes here, but I read what you two wrote, and I see similarities. My dad was a pastor-fundamentalist, evangelical church.

I, too, used to cut myself. I still struggle with the desire to cut myself when I feel self-hatred. But, I haven't actually broken the skin in years.

I was molested by my grandfather. Because of the whole church thing, I thought I was SOOOOO bad. I hated myself. I tried to tell my mom, and she said that I must be dreaming it. I convinced myself that I was dreaming it all. I thought I must be the biggest sinner ever to be able to come up with these ideas to dream. I mean, we didn't even have a name for that part of our body, it was that bad. If I could dream this, then I must be really bad.

Anyway, not much time now, but the christianity thing really screwed me and my family up."


And I said this:
"Not that this matters, but btw, I'm not against all forms of christianity or any religion for that matter. I'm against things that feel like a cult and religions that try to force people to be one and only one way and judgment and criticism. I believe in grace and love and gratitude."


I completely stand behind both of those statements. If you see something that you think is a stereotypical or prejudiced statement that I'm not seeing, please let me know.

The fundamentalist Christian thing did screw up my family. If you want to talk more about it to hear how this is true, I'd be happy to.

I'm not sure what I believe in right now. My spirituality is emerging as my growth is emerging. My therapist is a Christian. A kind, caring, loving, non-judgmental Christian who is full of grace and the fruits of the spirit. I feel fortunate that she prays for me every day. When Mom died, one of the biggest losses that I grieved was the loss of her praying for me every day.

I wish that you had said something at the time that this conversation was going on. That's how we can maintain the safety of the forum--by calling each other on it, in a kind, respectful, loving way when one of us says something inappropriate. We are all human, and we all make mistakes. I will try to learn from mine.

catgirl

AG,
I just deleted my post on this discussion. I had re-written it, and it sounded a lot less attacking, but I just want to forget about it. Sometimes on forums, that's what you have to do. It's much easier in conversation, because I can use body language, tone of voice, eye contact, and facial expressions to get my point across. Someone can see that I truly care about them, even if I didn't agree with something they said. On forums, it sounds like I'm attacking, when I really feel like I understand the situation and the pain beneath the problem.

I started to go into my pit of self-hatred. Then, I said, "Forget it. It's not worth the energy. I'm just going to delete the whole thing." So that's what I did.

catgirl

AG,

So, I took a nap and a shower and I feel much better. i learned a lesson: Don't post when you're not feeling well. I'm much too vulnerable when I'm not feeling well.

I hope I didn't offend you in any way.

How did the thread on religion end up on my site?

Catgirl,

Thank you for responding so thoughtfully to my post. I am not at all offended and I appreciate you hearing me. Sorry I didn't answer earlier, I was having a totally unrelated meltdown. And honestly, my emotional reaction felt like I might have been triggered which means I was reacting to more than was going on. So the same here, I'm sorry if I hurt you or offended you. And I definitely didn't mean to send you towards a pit; this isn't even close to anything that bad. I hope we're ok. Thanks.

Spagirl,
Really sorry about the hijack, didn't mean to yank the topic away from you.

AG