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{{{{{{ultraviolet}}}}}}
Hi UV! Sounds like you are doing some very intense and important work in your therapy. It is so good to hear that you've been able to tell your T about all of your feelings so far, and especially good that he's hearing you and being totally accepting about where you are at. I had all the same thoughts, feelings, and impulses with my former T that you do with your T. But unfortunately I can't tell you "what happens" because my former T was apparently very uncomfortable hearing about it.
He had used a new analogy to describe what we were doing in the therapy and I thought it meant it was safe to discuss those impulses because we were going to "redirect" them...but then apparently something got misunderstood and I was abruptly transferred. 
But it sounds like your T is responding in a much better way...I think I would have been in the same place you are if my T had responded like yours. Your description really resonated with me, I never thought about it as "impulses" before but that is a really good way to describe it. So at least I can share how it felt to let you know you're not alone...I hope that helps a little.
Like you, one of the ways I dealt with the feelings was to read all I could find on the internet about what goes on in therapy, especially about transference. Maybe it was "compulsive" like you said...I remember feeling really guilty or ashamed of it at first, like I was going behind his back or reading something I wasn't "supposed" to...every time I picked up Deborah Lott's book In Session, I felt like I was looking at something "forbidden" - and it didn't help that the other part of the title was The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists, or that the cover was illustrated with the therapy door slightly ajar and the light shining out, as if something terribly intimate was going on in there...here is what it looks like:
I actually hid the book under some other things...it's kind of funny to think about that now. That was early on...later I did have impulses like you describe, the strong longings (some of it intensely sexual, some of it more paternal), wanting to act out with calling. Being near him was rather like torture, especially those last few sessions, with wanting to hug or touch him. And his office was rather small so the closeness was distracting and disturbing. I remember being very glad on more than one occasion that arousal doesn't "show" on women like it does on men.
I remember one time handing him a picture and accidentally touched his finger, and almost apologized for it. I always felt extremely tense in sessions and always sat very still. Maybe hoping he wouldn't notice?
And like you, I also noticed an abrupt change in how I was feeling, as soon as I got attached to him (which was almost immediately) - I was no longer obsessing about the old BF. I thought of it as "passing the torch". I remember my former T asking once how I was doing with the thoughts of the old BF and with the depressive thoughts, and I said good, not having them much at all anymore...but then on the heels of that, was the thought "because now I'm thinking about you" but he didn't ask right then and I didn't volunteer...it was still early on...but I told him later. He did say a couple of times that he wanted his name on the pedestal I had drawn for the ex-BF...and he did say he would be my "transitional object"...so I thought I was right on track.
The difference between my situation and yours is that your T is allowing you to talk about these things...my former T reacted kind of funny when I first told him, like he was afraid to let me talk about it, so he did a 180 and shut me down. Then he kept trying to get me to talk about it again, but then I was so afraid that talking about them would get me transferred, that I never got to the point of having to worry about acting out on them. But if I had, then I would have talked to him about that, too. I would have kept talking, talking, talking about those feelings and worries and concerns to see what it meant about me. And I wouldn't have been surprised if it would have had something to do with "dependency"...more likely it had to do with attachment issues.
I'm not sure from your post if you have already told your T about the impulses, how you don't know how much longer you can fight yourself to prevent yourself from acting out/calling him. You said you have no problems telling him all of this - so that is what I would encourage you to do. Keep talking to him about it until you get to the bottom of where it is coming from. Easier said than done, I know. Good luck, and please keep us posted on how it is going.
Hugs,
SG
Hi UV! Sounds like you are doing some very intense and important work in your therapy. It is so good to hear that you've been able to tell your T about all of your feelings so far, and especially good that he's hearing you and being totally accepting about where you are at. I had all the same thoughts, feelings, and impulses with my former T that you do with your T. But unfortunately I can't tell you "what happens" because my former T was apparently very uncomfortable hearing about it.
He had used a new analogy to describe what we were doing in the therapy and I thought it meant it was safe to discuss those impulses because we were going to "redirect" them...but then apparently something got misunderstood and I was abruptly transferred. But it sounds like your T is responding in a much better way...I think I would have been in the same place you are if my T had responded like yours. Your description really resonated with me, I never thought about it as "impulses" before but that is a really good way to describe it. So at least I can share how it felt to let you know you're not alone...I hope that helps a little. Like you, one of the ways I dealt with the feelings was to read all I could find on the internet about what goes on in therapy, especially about transference. Maybe it was "compulsive" like you said...I remember feeling really guilty or ashamed of it at first, like I was going behind his back or reading something I wasn't "supposed" to...every time I picked up Deborah Lott's book In Session, I felt like I was looking at something "forbidden" - and it didn't help that the other part of the title was The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists, or that the cover was illustrated with the therapy door slightly ajar and the light shining out, as if something terribly intimate was going on in there...here is what it looks like:
I actually hid the book under some other things...it's kind of funny to think about that now. That was early on...later I did have impulses like you describe, the strong longings (some of it intensely sexual, some of it more paternal), wanting to act out with calling. Being near him was rather like torture, especially those last few sessions, with wanting to hug or touch him. And his office was rather small so the closeness was distracting and disturbing. I remember being very glad on more than one occasion that arousal doesn't "show" on women like it does on men.
I remember one time handing him a picture and accidentally touched his finger, and almost apologized for it. I always felt extremely tense in sessions and always sat very still. Maybe hoping he wouldn't notice? And like you, I also noticed an abrupt change in how I was feeling, as soon as I got attached to him (which was almost immediately) - I was no longer obsessing about the old BF. I thought of it as "passing the torch". I remember my former T asking once how I was doing with the thoughts of the old BF and with the depressive thoughts, and I said good, not having them much at all anymore...but then on the heels of that, was the thought "because now I'm thinking about you" but he didn't ask right then and I didn't volunteer...it was still early on...but I told him later. He did say a couple of times that he wanted his name on the pedestal I had drawn for the ex-BF...and he did say he would be my "transitional object"...so I thought I was right on track.
The difference between my situation and yours is that your T is allowing you to talk about these things...my former T reacted kind of funny when I first told him, like he was afraid to let me talk about it, so he did a 180 and shut me down. Then he kept trying to get me to talk about it again, but then I was so afraid that talking about them would get me transferred, that I never got to the point of having to worry about acting out on them. But if I had, then I would have talked to him about that, too. I would have kept talking, talking, talking about those feelings and worries and concerns to see what it meant about me. And I wouldn't have been surprised if it would have had something to do with "dependency"...more likely it had to do with attachment issues.
I'm not sure from your post if you have already told your T about the impulses, how you don't know how much longer you can fight yourself to prevent yourself from acting out/calling him. You said you have no problems telling him all of this - so that is what I would encourage you to do. Keep talking to him about it until you get to the bottom of where it is coming from. Easier said than done, I know. Good luck, and please keep us posted on how it is going.
Hugs,
SG
I can't answer any of your questions, UV, but I can completely empathize with what you're going through. So much of what you and SG described is familiar to me. The first time I quit therapy with my (now ex) P, it was a few weeks after I told him I have a "crush" on him, and I quit almost entirely because I was afraid of how "impulsive" I was feeling. I am not naturally an impulsive person, and not the kind to "make passes", but I honestly and truly was worried that I would try to kiss him or something!
Instead I quit therapy for a few months, googled him obsessively all summer, stared at his photo on facebook
, and fished for gossip about him from a mutual acquaintance. (Bad idea, btw.)
Does it get worse? I guess I can answer that: yes. And then eventually it gets better... right?? That's what I've been told, anyway. Hang in there. Sounds like you have a great T.
Instead I quit therapy for a few months, googled him obsessively all summer, stared at his photo on facebook
, and fished for gossip about him from a mutual acquaintance. (Bad idea, btw.)Does it get worse? I guess I can answer that: yes. And then eventually it gets better... right?? That's what I've been told, anyway. Hang in there. Sounds like you have a great T.
UV... thank you for your post as it was thought provoking for me and I recognize a lot of myself in your descriptions. I, too, have done a ton of reading and research and because my T had no experience with my issues, I pretty much diagnosed myself with the help of talking to others who feel the same way. Since then my T has worked hard to come up to speed on my dx and we have grown together through this.
It sounds to me like you are describing "complex" PTSD and not the one-time trauma PTSD which is discussed more in depth in the DSM IV and that most Ts are more familiar with. The thing with complex PTSD is that it may mimic borderline personality disorder in certain ways and I believe that some people get the wrong diagnosis. PTSD is Axis I not Axis II. And most times PTSD comes along with abuse issues, attachment injury and the dreaded transference feelings. My attachment fits into the disorganized category where I am alternatively clinging to my T while trying to find any number of reasons to run like heck from him. I have attached strongly to him and at first this did scare him until he decided it was an attachment injury which made it more acceptable and less scary. I also need constant reassurance and at first he was wary of this due to fear of my becoming too dependent on him. Most Ts consider dependency a bad thing but in the case of PTSD/attachment injury it is quite necessary to the healing process. You first must learn to depend before you can become interdependent. I find that the more my T reassures me the less I need it.
Have you read Wallin's book Attachment in Psychotherapy? I found that very helpful and anything written by John Briere, who is a well-respected trauma therapist and researcher has really clarified a lot of this for me. There are some youtube videos on John Briere out there. He is a very engaging and captivating speaker.
Thanks for your thoughts UV, it sound like you are on the right, although difficult path to healing.
TN
It sounds to me like you are describing "complex" PTSD and not the one-time trauma PTSD which is discussed more in depth in the DSM IV and that most Ts are more familiar with. The thing with complex PTSD is that it may mimic borderline personality disorder in certain ways and I believe that some people get the wrong diagnosis. PTSD is Axis I not Axis II. And most times PTSD comes along with abuse issues, attachment injury and the dreaded transference feelings. My attachment fits into the disorganized category where I am alternatively clinging to my T while trying to find any number of reasons to run like heck from him. I have attached strongly to him and at first this did scare him until he decided it was an attachment injury which made it more acceptable and less scary. I also need constant reassurance and at first he was wary of this due to fear of my becoming too dependent on him. Most Ts consider dependency a bad thing but in the case of PTSD/attachment injury it is quite necessary to the healing process. You first must learn to depend before you can become interdependent. I find that the more my T reassures me the less I need it.
Have you read Wallin's book Attachment in Psychotherapy? I found that very helpful and anything written by John Briere, who is a well-respected trauma therapist and researcher has really clarified a lot of this for me. There are some youtube videos on John Briere out there. He is a very engaging and captivating speaker.
Thanks for your thoughts UV, it sound like you are on the right, although difficult path to healing.
TN
Hi UV,
Sorry but this has turned out to be way long...you had said you wanted to know more about what happened with the former T, so here are the links to the threads that I started during that time (if you feel like you need some late-night reading LOL):
Long rant - very confused
Waiting...
Keep "punching"
To answer your questions:
I've never been diagnosed with PTSD. And at one time I read through the symptoms but never had the feeling of "that's it!". Not even sure I have disorganized attachment. I do know that my former T seemed afraid of me after the first few sessions (?), but after I'd done a lot of reading about therapy I concluded that (hopefully) it must be "negative" transference. When I told him of my perceptions/assumptions, that he wished he could get rid of me or was just putting up with me, regretted setting things up this way, etc., and that I thought it must be negative transference, he didn't say anything to correct my perceptions...but he did become much warmer and friendlier over the next several sessions. Which scared me, because then I wasn't sure if my perceptions were correct, and he was now covering it up, or if he realized he was covering up too much with professional distance and had decided to open up a little more. I do remember him mentioning once, there were a few patients where he dreaded seeing their name on his schedule, but then he said "but you're not one of those" with a little smile on his face. That should have made me feel better, right? But actually it made me uneasy...because would he really tell me if I was?
I am hoping you can tell me, why do those three particular traits in combination scare therapists off? What are they afraid of? It was my perception that my former T (and the couples T at that clinic) seemed afraid of me, especially at the end, even though they never came right out and said it. And even though I would agree that I have those three traits to a greater or lesser degree (see below), overall I do not see how as a whole I am "scary" or a burden. Yet they certainly reacted that way, so I "must" be.
Yes, yes, yes...I said this numerous times, what I wanted so badly and was hoping to get was blessed closure regarding the old BF. I had run into him again several times, which at first seemed coincidental but then remembering our old patterns seemed as if he was trying to initiate some sort of contact again, although in a very indirect way (too many details to go into here). But I was willing to accept no contact with him which was probably best in any case...I just wanted (want) closure, resolution, I want peace about this. And yes my mother was very emotionally lacking and unavailable always, as far as I can remember I never bonded with her at all, the strongest emotion I have toward her is great fear of my anger at her. And the strongest emotion she ever had toward me was irritation and even jealousy at times. First she was alcoholic and then when she got sober when I was twelve she left us in the care of our father so she could go live with my ex-BF's father. So she essentially abandoned us...and yes she has never admitted her part in any of it, not to any meaningful extent (unless it's to worm her way back in so she can eventually use me again) so yes, in my case those connections could definitely be there.
As for the three "horsemen" you mentioned:
Obsessing and remunerating: I was going to therapy to try to get over an old BF I'd been obsessing about again - fantasizing, longing after, writing "letters" to him I was never going to send, as a sort of journal trying to work it out myself. And I was very open about that, because that's why I was in therapy. Instead of acting out on it and chasing after the old BF, which I would actually NEVER do (why would I want to reinforce that he doesn't want me in his life? I've already had enough messages to that effect, thank you very much) I was trying to find out what the problem was in me, and fix it. There were a couple of times my former T responded to the thoughts I'd shared with comments like wow, you're really a private obsessor. And the couples T called it obsessing too. And they both said it like it was a bad thing. And my response was, yeah, I know...what I want to find out is WHY am I doing this?
Dependency: My former T also said he thought I had some traits of dependency disorder, or the "clinginess" you mentioned. He did throw out the term "needy" once, too, which kind of irritated me. I have the most trouble identifying with that one because I try so hard NOT to need others, including him. I worked very hard on therapy, outside of therapy, so I wouldn't be depending on him to "fix" me or do it for me. I only had one session a week, never called or wrote or even asked for contact outside of sessions. The only call I made once was to leave a message once to explain why I made the appointments I had (both our schedules were really tight), and the only outside contact I made was to send a note to tell him about my feelings...which he had been trying to get me to talk about, and we had agreed we were going to talk about, four months previously. And the whole point of the note was to get it on the table for the next session because I was having trouble bringing it up when I was right there in the room. And he knew that. I must have repeated that several times but was not listened to.
Another thing about the clinginess. My former T misinterpreted my arriving at the clinic early, despite my trying to correct it. I like some extra time when I arrive somewhere - I don't know why, that's just the way I like it. Arriving "just in time" makes me feel rushed so I like some transition time. The first few sessions, he came out early to get me. Which did not set a precedent with me in any way, I did not come to expect that - I just thought, he must not have anyone before me and must get bored. But then the third session he pointed out that we were starting early, but we were going to end early, because of boundaries...and seemed agitated and annoyed with me...but he didn't explain anything, just plowed on through the session with me feeling very hurt and confused. Not because I wasn't going to get extra time, because like I said I had not come to expect that whatsoever - but because he was acting so mean, like I was a pain in the butt patient and he was barely tolerating my being there. Later I read In Session and found out about the therapeutic boundaries and the importance of always starting and ending on time, and thought oh, that's what he's so worried about...he must be assuming that I'm trying to take advantage of his time because maybe other patients have done that. So then I started arriving "just in time" so he wouldn't feel pressured. I would wait in the car if I was a little early, or ask the receptionist not to page him right away. Later he made the comment, I notice you're not coming early anymore...because you know I'm not going to give you any extra time, right? That really ticked me off but I didn't say anything right away. Later I tried to explain all of this to him, but he basically refused to believe me.
Also on a few occasions I asked if it would be okay to ask for an extra session or call if I needed to, in case I was in the middle of a really dark place like the ones I had described to him, so that he could get a better idea of how I was feeling right then...and both times he said of course, I don't ever need to worry about that, we are a team, he knows I know how to respect the boundaries, and if I bump into one he'll "help" me. He was very, very clear about this, which made me feel relieved and finally safe enough to try it...and that's when it all fell apart. So again, another contradiction I just can't figure out what I did wrong. He knew the note I sent was written within the context of the therapy. He knew that, I know he did. So why did he get rid of me.
Anyway if you could explain more about what therapists see as clingy or needy behavior, I'd appreciate it. I just can't seem to identify that one in myself, other than the fact that I'm "depending" on them, temporarily, to help me see those things I can't see in myself. And if I'm not "supposed" to do that, then what am I there for?
Mild paranoia/hypervigilance: Yes, I would admit to this one. When I'm attached, I analyze every little thing to try and make sense of it.
Warning sign? Why? Warning sign for what purpose, what is the danger? I do not understand that. My T said he had helped two other women through transference feelings, and he would help me through it too...but I don't think he really knew how, and I never got a clear idea how he "helped" the other two. I was assuming the things I was reading about, but maybe he meant they just discussed it once or twice and that was the end of it. Certainly not the kind of thing I was reading. And I'm so sorry for what you went through in the termination - breakdown is a really good word for it, mine was handled so poorly too. When I went to talk to our couples T (at my former T's suggestion) about what I thought was a misunderstanding between my T and I, she appeared confused and said no one at that clinic was trained to do psychoanalysis-based therapy, that my T was cognitive behavioral, and if I developed feelings like this for him, then it means something went wrong in the therapy and I needed to be transferred. When I told her he'd known about my feelings for over four months and we'd been trying to work through them, she gave me a funny look, so I spent the rest of the session telling her some of the details of what was said. By the end she said it sounded like something had gone weird in the therapy, that she would run everything by her review team and get back to me. But nothing was ever explained any further except to say we had gone as far as we could, that I would be in good hands with the new T they were giving me to. I was only given half an hour with my T, with the other new T in the room, to process the termination. It was awful, but...well you can read about that in the links I gave you, if you want. I tried to bring up the attachment stuff so many times but was told I was getting confused and not understanding what I was reading, they would not listen and kept dismissing me and would not let me talk. So, so frustrating and painful.
I saw that T weekly for eight months. It ended at the end of August last year. And I've been seeing another T since October.
I felt crushed, like I had trusted so much and jumped off a building only to splatter all over the cement. For a long time I just felt literally broken, visceral shame, as if I were garbage to the core and had been thrown out. Especially right after the transfer session I would turn red and shake with these shame feelings, but thankfully I did not have hallucinations. I am so sorry for your experience of that, how awful for you.
I am REALLY glad to hear you found a T who gets it and will work with you. Your experience confirms what I've read, that someone with attachment injuries becomes more anxious when they are feeling threatened with abandonment...but if they are allowed to feel safe, that they will not be abandoned, the anxiety lessens and they can heal. I'm really happy for you that you found this T and I hope it continues to go so well for you.
Well I don't have those kinds of feelings with her at all...but if I did, I could. I have told her about the feelings I had about the former T and still do when they come up.
This was toward the end. I had been struggling with telling him about all the transference stuff. Had it on a list, but was obviously holding back on some of the more personal (sexual) stuff. He had transferred the couples therapy to another T, because he felt that my husband might be too uncomfortable to come back to couples therapy with him given all the time I had spent in individual therapy with him. He had also discussed my case with his review team, particularly the transference feelings, and said if the tranference became an obstacle to my therapy goals, instead of a vehicle to them, then he would have to transfer me. Which felt like a threat of abandonment to me and was keeping me stuck, I believe - I knew, and he knew I knew, he couldn't gratify me, and I wasn't asking him to - but I really really did not want to be abandoned. And he knew that too, even said to me once, wow, you have a really big abandonment "button". Yeah. Then the session before the last one, he started out with telling me he had a "new" analogy for what we were doing. He said it was like the game Battleship and drew a game board up on his white board, with some of the ships going sideways and some up and down. He said the goal was to get the ones going sideways (the feelings for him, I assumed) turned so they were oriented toward my therapy goals. Earlier in the therapy we had agreed we would look at my feelings for him to see what they said about me, and he had said my feelings for the old BF were symbolic of something else - and I had read that my feelings for my T were symbolic, too - so it all seemed to fit, that turning the ships was the same thing as finding out where my feelings were really coming from, and not assuming they were really "about" my ex-BF OR my T. In other words it seemed as if with this analogy, he was finally telling me it was safe to talk about the feelings without worrying I would be terminated. So I sent him a note to tell him I'd been getting distracted by something he had worn three times in a row. I did ask him if it was possible for him not to wear it on the days I came in, but that was only a request. I said I knew we were going to have to talk about it and that was my real purpose in sending it, was to get that and all the other erotic transference stuff out on the table finally. I was so ready to talk when I got there...but he changed completely. Wasn't wearing what he'd worn before, but was really apparently ticked that I'd asked him not to wear that, said he couldn't change his clothes for me, what we really needed to work on was looking at me. And I said of course, that's what I wanted to do...but felt awful at the way he was acting. He said he didn't know what we were going to do about this and if we couldn't work through it, then I would have to be transferred. Instant abandonment trigger...so I said I thought we were supposed to look at this to see why I was feeling this way, that if we could get to the symbolism behind it then it wouldn't be a problem anymore. He said it could go either way, either get better or worse...so what were we going to do about it? I tried to read into the symbolism myself, saying maybe the white shirt symbolized the "white knight" I was looking for. But he didn't really help me with that at all. This totally stumped me, it was so contradictory, so I just started crying. Then he asked how many times had I written and re-written the note, and was there any symbolism in the red ink...and I remember thinking WTF?? He kept asking what are we going to do, I had no idea, I thought we were supposed to just talk about it, and he kept contradicting himself with saying he never said I couldn't talk about it, but then not letting me talk about it. Anyway it went on like that to the end of the session, and that was the last one.
Last T's style (I found out from the couples T) was CBT. Which explains the "feel, think, do" diagram he explained to me once out of the blue. Also explains his preoccupation in that last session with what are we going to "do" about this, and his repeatedly challenging my thoughts about things that really felt weird and unnecessary. I know now that was because I already had the think and do parts from other work I'd done...what I was wanting to do was go deeper to the underlying feelings, to try and make the think and do part more effective, if that makes any sense. So what I wanted to work on was the "feel" part of his diagram. But I really think he is very uncomfortable with that part. My current T describes herself as relational and psychodynamic...she says she is "all about the feelings".
Wow, this really dug up all that old pain...not sure if that's a good thing or not...maybe this wasn't as resolved as I've been thinking. Sorry for the length of this post, it really is a beast. I hope things go well with your discussing the impulses with your T, please let us know how it goes.
SG
Sorry but this has turned out to be way long...you had said you wanted to know more about what happened with the former T, so here are the links to the threads that I started during that time (if you feel like you need some late-night reading LOL):
Long rant - very confused
Waiting...
Keep "punching"
To answer your questions:
quote:Do you both relate to PTSD? I think the disorganized attachment pattern is similar to PTSD.
I've never been diagnosed with PTSD. And at one time I read through the symptoms but never had the feeling of "that's it!". Not even sure I have disorganized attachment. I do know that my former T seemed afraid of me after the first few sessions (?), but after I'd done a lot of reading about therapy I concluded that (hopefully) it must be "negative" transference. When I told him of my perceptions/assumptions, that he wished he could get rid of me or was just putting up with me, regretted setting things up this way, etc., and that I thought it must be negative transference, he didn't say anything to correct my perceptions...but he did become much warmer and friendlier over the next several sessions. Which scared me, because then I wasn't sure if my perceptions were correct, and he was now covering it up, or if he realized he was covering up too much with professional distance and had decided to open up a little more. I do remember him mentioning once, there were a few patients where he dreaded seeing their name on his schedule, but then he said "but you're not one of those" with a little smile on his face. That should have made me feel better, right? But actually it made me uneasy...because would he really tell me if I was?
quote:I really think what scares them off-either directly or indirectly-is the mixture of these 3 traits: OCD anxiety (obsessing/renumerating/ impulses), dependency (clingyness), and mild paranoia (referred to as hypervigilance in PTSD). I think it's that mixture. Those 3 traits presented seperately, does not concern them--but having that cluster scares them off.
I am hoping you can tell me, why do those three particular traits in combination scare therapists off? What are they afraid of? It was my perception that my former T (and the couples T at that clinic) seemed afraid of me, especially at the end, even though they never came right out and said it. And even though I would agree that I have those three traits to a greater or lesser degree (see below), overall I do not see how as a whole I am "scary" or a burden. Yet they certainly reacted that way, so I "must" be.
quote:What feeds preoccupation especially, at least in my experience, is that lack of closure...when a person does not admit their part in the harm-which could be a T or bf or parent. Also, the betrayal of the mother, in particular-do you find that to be true with either of you?
Yes, yes, yes...I said this numerous times, what I wanted so badly and was hoping to get was blessed closure regarding the old BF. I had run into him again several times, which at first seemed coincidental but then remembering our old patterns seemed as if he was trying to initiate some sort of contact again, although in a very indirect way (too many details to go into here). But I was willing to accept no contact with him which was probably best in any case...I just wanted (want) closure, resolution, I want peace about this. And yes my mother was very emotionally lacking and unavailable always, as far as I can remember I never bonded with her at all, the strongest emotion I have toward her is great fear of my anger at her. And the strongest emotion she ever had toward me was irritation and even jealousy at times. First she was alcoholic and then when she got sober when I was twelve she left us in the care of our father so she could go live with my ex-BF's father. So she essentially abandoned us...and yes she has never admitted her part in any of it, not to any meaningful extent (unless it's to worm her way back in so she can eventually use me again) so yes, in my case those connections could definitely be there.
As for the three "horsemen" you mentioned:
Obsessing and remunerating: I was going to therapy to try to get over an old BF I'd been obsessing about again - fantasizing, longing after, writing "letters" to him I was never going to send, as a sort of journal trying to work it out myself. And I was very open about that, because that's why I was in therapy. Instead of acting out on it and chasing after the old BF, which I would actually NEVER do (why would I want to reinforce that he doesn't want me in his life? I've already had enough messages to that effect, thank you very much) I was trying to find out what the problem was in me, and fix it. There were a couple of times my former T responded to the thoughts I'd shared with comments like wow, you're really a private obsessor. And the couples T called it obsessing too. And they both said it like it was a bad thing. And my response was, yeah, I know...what I want to find out is WHY am I doing this?
Dependency: My former T also said he thought I had some traits of dependency disorder, or the "clinginess" you mentioned. He did throw out the term "needy" once, too, which kind of irritated me. I have the most trouble identifying with that one because I try so hard NOT to need others, including him. I worked very hard on therapy, outside of therapy, so I wouldn't be depending on him to "fix" me or do it for me. I only had one session a week, never called or wrote or even asked for contact outside of sessions. The only call I made once was to leave a message once to explain why I made the appointments I had (both our schedules were really tight), and the only outside contact I made was to send a note to tell him about my feelings...which he had been trying to get me to talk about, and we had agreed we were going to talk about, four months previously. And the whole point of the note was to get it on the table for the next session because I was having trouble bringing it up when I was right there in the room. And he knew that. I must have repeated that several times but was not listened to.
Another thing about the clinginess. My former T misinterpreted my arriving at the clinic early, despite my trying to correct it. I like some extra time when I arrive somewhere - I don't know why, that's just the way I like it. Arriving "just in time" makes me feel rushed so I like some transition time. The first few sessions, he came out early to get me. Which did not set a precedent with me in any way, I did not come to expect that - I just thought, he must not have anyone before me and must get bored. But then the third session he pointed out that we were starting early, but we were going to end early, because of boundaries...and seemed agitated and annoyed with me...but he didn't explain anything, just plowed on through the session with me feeling very hurt and confused. Not because I wasn't going to get extra time, because like I said I had not come to expect that whatsoever - but because he was acting so mean, like I was a pain in the butt patient and he was barely tolerating my being there. Later I read In Session and found out about the therapeutic boundaries and the importance of always starting and ending on time, and thought oh, that's what he's so worried about...he must be assuming that I'm trying to take advantage of his time because maybe other patients have done that. So then I started arriving "just in time" so he wouldn't feel pressured. I would wait in the car if I was a little early, or ask the receptionist not to page him right away. Later he made the comment, I notice you're not coming early anymore...because you know I'm not going to give you any extra time, right? That really ticked me off but I didn't say anything right away. Later I tried to explain all of this to him, but he basically refused to believe me.
Also on a few occasions I asked if it would be okay to ask for an extra session or call if I needed to, in case I was in the middle of a really dark place like the ones I had described to him, so that he could get a better idea of how I was feeling right then...and both times he said of course, I don't ever need to worry about that, we are a team, he knows I know how to respect the boundaries, and if I bump into one he'll "help" me. He was very, very clear about this, which made me feel relieved and finally safe enough to try it...and that's when it all fell apart. So again, another contradiction I just can't figure out what I did wrong. He knew the note I sent was written within the context of the therapy. He knew that, I know he did. So why did he get rid of me.
Anyway if you could explain more about what therapists see as clingy or needy behavior, I'd appreciate it. I just can't seem to identify that one in myself, other than the fact that I'm "depending" on them, temporarily, to help me see those things I can't see in myself. And if I'm not "supposed" to do that, then what am I there for?
Mild paranoia/hypervigilance: Yes, I would admit to this one. When I'm attached, I analyze every little thing to try and make sense of it.
quote:I read intense early attachments are a warning sign for Ts for people with personality disorders. I almost had a complete breakdown when this T terminated me-he handled it so poorly. And he never got the context as to why I became attached so soon. There is a lot of good reason behind it..he never asked or addressed it after I revealed the feelings.
Warning sign? Why? Warning sign for what purpose, what is the danger? I do not understand that. My T said he had helped two other women through transference feelings, and he would help me through it too...but I don't think he really knew how, and I never got a clear idea how he "helped" the other two. I was assuming the things I was reading about, but maybe he meant they just discussed it once or twice and that was the end of it. Certainly not the kind of thing I was reading. And I'm so sorry for what you went through in the termination - breakdown is a really good word for it, mine was handled so poorly too. When I went to talk to our couples T (at my former T's suggestion) about what I thought was a misunderstanding between my T and I, she appeared confused and said no one at that clinic was trained to do psychoanalysis-based therapy, that my T was cognitive behavioral, and if I developed feelings like this for him, then it means something went wrong in the therapy and I needed to be transferred. When I told her he'd known about my feelings for over four months and we'd been trying to work through them, she gave me a funny look, so I spent the rest of the session telling her some of the details of what was said. By the end she said it sounded like something had gone weird in the therapy, that she would run everything by her review team and get back to me. But nothing was ever explained any further except to say we had gone as far as we could, that I would be in good hands with the new T they were giving me to. I was only given half an hour with my T, with the other new T in the room, to process the termination. It was awful, but...well you can read about that in the links I gave you, if you want. I tried to bring up the attachment stuff so many times but was told I was getting confused and not understanding what I was reading, they would not listen and kept dismissing me and would not let me talk. So, so frustrating and painful.
quote:how long did you see T before he terminated you? How long has it been since then, SG?
I saw that T weekly for eight months. It ended at the end of August last year. And I've been seeing another T since October.
quote:It was gut-wrenching pain and I had hallucinations..was it that bad for you?
I felt crushed, like I had trusted so much and jumped off a building only to splatter all over the cement. For a long time I just felt literally broken, visceral shame, as if I were garbage to the core and had been thrown out. Especially right after the transfer session I would turn red and shake with these shame feelings, but thankfully I did not have hallucinations. I am so sorry for your experience of that, how awful for you.
quote:But you know, I didn't develop the attachment right away with my current T; and the transference is not as intense as with the other T...which I believe comes from T adjusting how he works.
I am REALLY glad to hear you found a T who gets it and will work with you. Your experience confirms what I've read, that someone with attachment injuries becomes more anxious when they are feeling threatened with abandonment...but if they are allowed to feel safe, that they will not be abandoned, the anxiety lessens and they can heal. I'm really happy for you that you found this T and I hope it continues to go so well for you.
quote:SG-do you tell everything, as far as transference/present/relational feelings. to your current T?
Well I don't have those kinds of feelings with her at all...but if I did, I could. I have told her about the feelings I had about the former T and still do when they come up.
quote:You mentioned your last T wanted to 'redirect' the impulses-that does not sound psychoanalytic/psychodynamic at all... (?) but I sense the object relations background. That's odd about redirecting, maybe not odd, but suprising?-I couldn't imagine my T discussing redirecting impulses!
This was toward the end. I had been struggling with telling him about all the transference stuff. Had it on a list, but was obviously holding back on some of the more personal (sexual) stuff. He had transferred the couples therapy to another T, because he felt that my husband might be too uncomfortable to come back to couples therapy with him given all the time I had spent in individual therapy with him. He had also discussed my case with his review team, particularly the transference feelings, and said if the tranference became an obstacle to my therapy goals, instead of a vehicle to them, then he would have to transfer me. Which felt like a threat of abandonment to me and was keeping me stuck, I believe - I knew, and he knew I knew, he couldn't gratify me, and I wasn't asking him to - but I really really did not want to be abandoned. And he knew that too, even said to me once, wow, you have a really big abandonment "button". Yeah. Then the session before the last one, he started out with telling me he had a "new" analogy for what we were doing. He said it was like the game Battleship and drew a game board up on his white board, with some of the ships going sideways and some up and down. He said the goal was to get the ones going sideways (the feelings for him, I assumed) turned so they were oriented toward my therapy goals. Earlier in the therapy we had agreed we would look at my feelings for him to see what they said about me, and he had said my feelings for the old BF were symbolic of something else - and I had read that my feelings for my T were symbolic, too - so it all seemed to fit, that turning the ships was the same thing as finding out where my feelings were really coming from, and not assuming they were really "about" my ex-BF OR my T. In other words it seemed as if with this analogy, he was finally telling me it was safe to talk about the feelings without worrying I would be terminated. So I sent him a note to tell him I'd been getting distracted by something he had worn three times in a row. I did ask him if it was possible for him not to wear it on the days I came in, but that was only a request. I said I knew we were going to have to talk about it and that was my real purpose in sending it, was to get that and all the other erotic transference stuff out on the table finally. I was so ready to talk when I got there...but he changed completely. Wasn't wearing what he'd worn before, but was really apparently ticked that I'd asked him not to wear that, said he couldn't change his clothes for me, what we really needed to work on was looking at me. And I said of course, that's what I wanted to do...but felt awful at the way he was acting. He said he didn't know what we were going to do about this and if we couldn't work through it, then I would have to be transferred. Instant abandonment trigger...so I said I thought we were supposed to look at this to see why I was feeling this way, that if we could get to the symbolism behind it then it wouldn't be a problem anymore. He said it could go either way, either get better or worse...so what were we going to do about it? I tried to read into the symbolism myself, saying maybe the white shirt symbolized the "white knight" I was looking for. But he didn't really help me with that at all. This totally stumped me, it was so contradictory, so I just started crying. Then he asked how many times had I written and re-written the note, and was there any symbolism in the red ink...and I remember thinking WTF?? He kept asking what are we going to do, I had no idea, I thought we were supposed to just talk about it, and he kept contradicting himself with saying he never said I couldn't talk about it, but then not letting me talk about it. Anyway it went on like that to the end of the session, and that was the last one.
quote:What orientation does your current T primarily identify with? And I think I already asked you about your last Ts style (?)
Last T's style (I found out from the couples T) was CBT. Which explains the "feel, think, do" diagram he explained to me once out of the blue. Also explains his preoccupation in that last session with what are we going to "do" about this, and his repeatedly challenging my thoughts about things that really felt weird and unnecessary. I know now that was because I already had the think and do parts from other work I'd done...what I was wanting to do was go deeper to the underlying feelings, to try and make the think and do part more effective, if that makes any sense. So what I wanted to work on was the "feel" part of his diagram. But I really think he is very uncomfortable with that part. My current T describes herself as relational and psychodynamic...she says she is "all about the feelings".
Wow, this really dug up all that old pain...not sure if that's a good thing or not...maybe this wasn't as resolved as I've been thinking. Sorry for the length of this post, it really is a beast. I hope things go well with your discussing the impulses with your T, please let us know how it goes.
SG
Hi, UV, I don't know if we've met before, so I wanted to chime in and say hello. I'm reading the thread with interest, although much of it is way over my head (of I'm not connecting with it) I still would like to say a couple of things that really hit me.
SG, there is nothing "wrong" with you that should scare a T off, even if you have these 3 traits. I think that when UV is talking about warnings, and T's getting scared off, she is probably just saying that many T's do not have the tools that are neccessary to deal with this type of problem...however (as you are finding) many T's do. But I definitely think (from what I've learned on here) a CBT oriented therapist would feel threatened by their own inability to help you, most likely. I think many therapists probably "fear" clients that they do not have the tools or skills to help. It is no wrong in you or me...just some do, some don't. And maybe, some are willing to try to learn, but would have to become very humble to do so, and that is something that takes years of work on oneself. For a therapist to look at a client and say, "how can I change the way I generally operate and develop the skills to help you," means that person has a tremendous ability to look inside and see their own lacks and not be frightened away by the client shining a light on those lacks, but be willing to "not be God." So what if a therapist is secretly in the depths of his soul, only a therapist in order to feel like God, to be a "fixer" of problems and a "creator" of healing? Well, then someone like you, or I will inevitably end up in a very hurt place, should we have the misfortune to ask a person like that to help us find ourselves.
Hope you don't mind me chiming in here....
Peace,
BB
quote:And even though I would agree that I have those three traits to a greater or lesser degree (see below), overall I do not see how as a whole I am "scary" or a burden. Yet they certainly reacted that way, so I "must" be
SG, there is nothing "wrong" with you that should scare a T off, even if you have these 3 traits. I think that when UV is talking about warnings, and T's getting scared off, she is probably just saying that many T's do not have the tools that are neccessary to deal with this type of problem...however (as you are finding) many T's do. But I definitely think (from what I've learned on here) a CBT oriented therapist would feel threatened by their own inability to help you, most likely. I think many therapists probably "fear" clients that they do not have the tools or skills to help. It is no wrong in you or me...just some do, some don't. And maybe, some are willing to try to learn, but would have to become very humble to do so, and that is something that takes years of work on oneself. For a therapist to look at a client and say, "how can I change the way I generally operate and develop the skills to help you," means that person has a tremendous ability to look inside and see their own lacks and not be frightened away by the client shining a light on those lacks, but be willing to "not be God." So what if a therapist is secretly in the depths of his soul, only a therapist in order to feel like God, to be a "fixer" of problems and a "creator" of healing? Well, then someone like you, or I will inevitably end up in a very hurt place, should we have the misfortune to ask a person like that to help us find ourselves.
Hope you don't mind me chiming in here....
Peace,
BB
quote:And maybe, some are willing to try to learn, but would have to become very humble to do so, and that is something that takes years of work on oneself. For a therapist to look at a client and say, "how can I change the way I generally operate and develop the skills to help you," means that person has a tremendous ability to look inside and see their own lacks and not be frightened away by the client shining a light on those lacks, but be willing to "not be God." So what if a therapist is secretly in the depths of his soul, only a therapist in order to feel like God, to be a "fixer" of problems and a "creator" of healing? Well, then someone like you, or I will inevitably end up in a very hurt place, should we have the misfortune to ask a person like that to help us find ourselves.
Hi BB,
I think this is SO spot on!! When a therapist feels like that, then your therapy is really about them and their needs and that always derails the proceedings. This made me remember a conversation I had once with my T who I think was amazing at handling my dependency and attraction and all that stuff. We had one session where we were discussing the erotic attraction in pretty deep detail. I was talking about why I wanted to have sex with him, and what I was looking to get out of it and tying that back to my past and how I had felt as a child. You would have thought we were discussing the weather. I actually looked at my T at one point and said I understood how being on the other end of this conversation could be pretty uncomfortable. And he told me, yeah, but I'm not. And I stopped and looked at him and realized he REALLY wasn't! So I said, you really aren't how do you do that?!? He told me that when he was younger, he wasn't as good about it but he had cleared out alot of his own garbage and he understood where it was coming from and it didn't feel threatening. He has a deep humility while maintaining a clear sense of his strengths that allows him to be really open to whatever a client brings him.
So I just wanted to say that I think you really identified just want the problem can be. If the therapist is feeling threatened or inadequate, how much easier to say that the client is difficult. Sometimes, I think there are therapists who only want to treat clients who don't NEED to be in therapy.
AG
quote:But now instead of accepting the wish to connect with him-I feel as if I'm fighting it. I keep thinking of a reason to text him-knowing I should not and cannot. I do not think I will-but it's as if I have to fight these impulses-and often. We don't have contact in between (weekly) sessions-and I don't want to start now. I had texted him twice in 10 months, but had legit reasons (such as: I'm running 20 minutes late, sorry). But now I'm looking for excuses and fighting myself to not act out..but am acting out with anxiety through other outlets....Also, when we are not in our chairs such as when I'm leaving, everytime he stands close to me-I want to hug him or touch him.
Hi UV,
You have a very similar background to me, I was sexually abused by my dad from the age of 4 to 9 and my mom was pretty checked out and left me unprotected. In my case, it's resulted in PTSD and attachment injuries. The development of my attraction to my present T is what helped both of us identify the attachment injuries. When children are abused by a primary caretaker, they often develop disorganized attachment which means they can switch between avoidant behavior and pre-occupied behavior and back very rapidly. You are in a situation in which the very person you need to move towards to comfort you is also the source of the danger. So as desparately as we long to have our needs for acceptance, comfort, and love fulfilled, we also experience moving closer to someone to meet those needs as highly dangerous.
So many of the behaviors you are describing: missing your T, wanting to be in communication with him, wanting to touch him, are EXACTLY the kind of behavior a small child exhibits towards their attachment figure. These unmet needs are very primitive, from a very deep level and are a matter of life and death (if we don't stay near our attachment figure as children we die). As your T has provided what you need, these needs have come roaring back to life. That's why they're so strong. Seen in the proper context, they make perfect sense.
You're T sounds like he's doing a fantastic job of allowing you to express these feelings and holding still. That's the most important thing he can do. In my experience the intensity comes and goes but is the most helped by going back and continuing to talk about how you feel no matter what it is. My T always told me that he had the boundaries so that nothing inappropriate would happen but that any and all of my emotions were welcome in his office and could be discussed. That's how I worked through them.
You talked about wanting to text him or contact him in between sessions but knowing you shouldn't. Why shouldn't you? Does your T have a set policy about contact between sessions? Or is it your own fear of moving closer or allowing yourself to need him that gets in the way? I say this because my T actually has a very liberal contact policy, I can call or email anytime in between sessions when I need to, even if he's on vacation. It took me a REALLY long time to become comfortable doing this and kicked up all kinds of interesting feelings. My T explained to me over and over that it was actually theraputic for me to do so. I needed to learn that it was a good thing to move TOWARDS someone when i felt needy. That it's healthy for a human being to move towards connection but we had a huge sense of danger to overcome.
The truth is that all human beings need to be dependent on another human being before they can be independent. We're supposed to do that as children, when it's easier, more appropriate and we can take in what we need on the level we need to. But if it doesn't happen, we still need to learn a lot of things we only learn by being dependent on a stronger, wiser, other. Dependence can be a very touchy topic with a lot of therapists who have been trained to always see it as pathological in a patient. My T saw it as development gone awry and understood my need to be dependent on him for awhile in order to learn enough to stand more on my own.
I would recommend browsing through the forum (searches on "transference" and "dependence" would turn up a lot of good topics) as there have been a lot of good discussions on the stuff you're struggling with. I don't say that to discourage you from talking about how you're feeling, that's really important, I just think you might find it helpful. A good place to start is with these two topics: Update on Transference and Transference II
AG
quote:If the therapist is feeling threatened or inadequate, how much easier to say that the client is difficult. Sometimes, I think there are therapists who only want to treat clients who don't NEED to be in therapy.
Thank you AG...my question is when you are in the middle of attachment stuff and you really, really need to trust the therapist, is there some way to discern where the therapist is at with this, in the middle of all our own confusing thoughts and projections and so on? Is there some kind of bottom line "if he is like this, then you can know he is safe" litmus test to know that the person has done their own work...because for me, my T seems to possess this basic humility, and yet many things happen that have confused me. And especially, the fact that I do have to make allowances for the fact that he is after all, *not* a divine being, frequently reminds me of that fact, even though I might think, and even need him to be one, kwim? So many paradoxes.
BB
That is very tough struggle BB and an excellent question. Especially because you're right, no matter how good the therapist, they are human and will sometimes let you down. Actually a very important part of healing is learning that disruptions do NOT mean the end of a relationship. That they can be repaired. Since there are no perfect human beings, it is imperative we learn how to do this.
My best gauge for this is non-defensiveness in the therapist. You have to keep talking about how you're feeling, especially about the things that confuse you. My therapist talked alot about how our emotions are sometimes an accurate reflection of reality and sometimes they weren't. They're vitally important information but we have to be able to get enough space between us and them to use them instead of letting them use us. So I asked him how do we tell if our feelings are accurate and he told me, you have to ask. So if I think my T is angry, or upset, or annoyed or wants to get rid of me based on my feelings, I had to keep asking him if it was true. But here's the litmus test for me. Whenever I asked, he was understanding and accepting of my feelings, he didn't get defensive or angry (and trust me I have accused him of some pretty bad stuff based on NO evidence) and his focus has always been on me. He would normalize my feelings, place them in context so I could understand why I was feeling that way even when he was telling me that my feelings weren't an accurate reflection of reality. He made my feelings welcome. And he never ever acted in a way which said my feelings were the "problem," they were just a source of information.
So the best thing to do if you feel like there's a red flag, is to take it to your T and talk about it. If they're open to talking about it, explaining why they do what they do, etc. I think you can be reasonably sure you're safe. If they're unwilling to discuss their behavior or act like they're beyond questioning, it's time to run like hell. It's also not a bad idea, if you have someone close, who has experience in therapy, run the behavior past them and see what they think if you don't trust your own reactions. Hope that helps.
AG
My best gauge for this is non-defensiveness in the therapist. You have to keep talking about how you're feeling, especially about the things that confuse you. My therapist talked alot about how our emotions are sometimes an accurate reflection of reality and sometimes they weren't. They're vitally important information but we have to be able to get enough space between us and them to use them instead of letting them use us. So I asked him how do we tell if our feelings are accurate and he told me, you have to ask. So if I think my T is angry, or upset, or annoyed or wants to get rid of me based on my feelings, I had to keep asking him if it was true. But here's the litmus test for me. Whenever I asked, he was understanding and accepting of my feelings, he didn't get defensive or angry (and trust me I have accused him of some pretty bad stuff based on NO evidence) and his focus has always been on me. He would normalize my feelings, place them in context so I could understand why I was feeling that way even when he was telling me that my feelings weren't an accurate reflection of reality. He made my feelings welcome. And he never ever acted in a way which said my feelings were the "problem," they were just a source of information.
So the best thing to do if you feel like there's a red flag, is to take it to your T and talk about it. If they're open to talking about it, explaining why they do what they do, etc. I think you can be reasonably sure you're safe. If they're unwilling to discuss their behavior or act like they're beyond questioning, it's time to run like hell. It's also not a bad idea, if you have someone close, who has experience in therapy, run the behavior past them and see what they think if you don't trust your own reactions. Hope that helps.
AG
Hi again UV,
TN, BB, and AG are so right, of course. It is so frustrating – I “know” these things when I hear others’ stories, but sometimes forget them when it comes to my own. Maybe it hasn’t sunk in as far as it needs to yet, if I forget it that easily. Anyway I’d really really like to delete most of my previous post and just leave up the links up in answer to your question about what happened with my former T, but then the thread loses continuity, so I'll leave it up but just say sorry for the rehash. And TN, I'm going to check out that book. Both you and AG have recommended it so it must be good.
SG
TN, BB, and AG are so right, of course. It is so frustrating – I “know” these things when I hear others’ stories, but sometimes forget them when it comes to my own. Maybe it hasn’t sunk in as far as it needs to yet, if I forget it that easily. Anyway I’d really really like to delete most of my previous post and just leave up the links up in answer to your question about what happened with my former T, but then the thread loses continuity, so I'll leave it up but just say sorry for the rehash. And TN, I'm going to check out that book. Both you and AG have recommended it so it must be good.
SG
SG...thank you for not deleting....it is so funny, I had a feeling you were thinking that, and I was really struck by your post.... there is so much of value in it for me to learn and it helps us to know more of you, which is valuable too...I really hope for my own selfish sake you can leave it there, because in all honesty it is a really wonderful post. I want to respond to more of the points in it myself, when I have some time, and also to what UV said, because I think there is so much for all of us to learn here....
Hug, SG, please keep posting about this...I know that you feel sensitive about it, but your post is so open and so honest...we all struggle with feeling like "it's too much." About ourselves, but others don't feel that way at all...
BB
Hug, SG, please keep posting about this...I know that you feel sensitive about it, but your post is so open and so honest...we all struggle with feeling like "it's too much." About ourselves, but others don't feel that way at all...
BB
SG,
I just want to say "Hear, hear" to what BB said, a very insightful, wise woman whose statement was dead on!
AG
I just want to say "Hear, hear" to what BB said, a very insightful, wise woman whose statement was dead on!
AG
Ok, UV, I reallllly hope you don't mind if I use your thread to ask AG ANOTHER question....so AG, what would you do if your T got defensive at times, then corrected it when I told him how that felt, and apologized very sincerely for his mistake, but then got defensive again, or made similar "mistakes" to the one that originally upset me- honestly, I think he's a sweetie to always put up with my constant, easily hurt feelings and often, apologize, but the reality is that I'm not postive he is all that reliable...he's just pretty disorganized and too busy, etc., but he's a sweetie in terms of not thinking he's "God." In fact he constantly remionds me of that fact, jokes about it very kindly, etc....I want to cut him some slack because, well, he's human- and also, and obviously, I am reallllly attached to him. It just gets so confusing at times. I should mention that he *seems* to have changed lately, his way of operating with me...I don't want this to get too long, so I shouldn't give all the details, but he just seems much kinder and much less likely to dismiss me or hurry me than he used to. (eek sorry, guys, I didn't mean to change the thread to suit me, but I desperately need to ask this!)
BB
BB
Thanks BB and AG...BB that is funny you knew I was thinking that...
Yeah, I know, but I've felt it myself so many times...maybe I recognized the signs....
UV, I just wanted to say, that I really relate to what you are going through. and I'm not sure if it gets better, for me it's been over a year of therapy and no sign of the attachment feelings dissappearing, however, they do become for tolerable in time, for me. I realte to the sense of feeling their is nothing you can do but accept these feelings, and that in some sense they are agony...and when T meets you there and is accepting of your feelings, yes, it is blissful. I remembered one session, where I hardly talked at all, (my first time seeing him, as we had phone counseling only, then move to session by video conference) It was so strage...seeing his face just pulled me into a blissful kind of joy, that I have never, ever felt that happy and joyful in my entire life. Ver, very strane, and stranger, for me, that I remember it...somthing is going on here that is real, very, very real, and that one session made it ultimately clear to me...that he could accept me even when I was happy, but could not speak!
SO, UV, I think it is hard, because we keep hoping to reenter that blissful state, that T's sometimes seem to mysteriously, bring about... and the hope of experiencing it again, but not, maybe, is painful in the extreme at times. Agaony, even, a longing very deep. I tend to think of this in spiritual terms, so I would say it is the longing for God that we are feeling in that state. But I'm not sure about what is going on, here...something very important I think. And it is so good, you have a T who can look at that honestly with you. I think it has to do with needs that were never met, and those longings, maybe very young longings, getting triggered by a situation where we are genuinely accepted and nurtured.
What do you think?
BB
UV, I just wanted to say, that I really relate to what you are going through. and I'm not sure if it gets better, for me it's been over a year of therapy and no sign of the attachment feelings dissappearing, however, they do become for tolerable in time, for me. I realte to the sense of feeling their is nothing you can do but accept these feelings, and that in some sense they are agony...and when T meets you there and is accepting of your feelings, yes, it is blissful. I remembered one session, where I hardly talked at all, (my first time seeing him, as we had phone counseling only, then move to session by video conference) It was so strage...seeing his face just pulled me into a blissful kind of joy, that I have never, ever felt that happy and joyful in my entire life. Ver, very strane, and stranger, for me, that I remember it...somthing is going on here that is real, very, very real, and that one session made it ultimately clear to me...that he could accept me even when I was happy, but could not speak!
SO, UV, I think it is hard, because we keep hoping to reenter that blissful state, that T's sometimes seem to mysteriously, bring about... and the hope of experiencing it again, but not, maybe, is painful in the extreme at times. Agaony, even, a longing very deep. I tend to think of this in spiritual terms, so I would say it is the longing for God that we are feeling in that state. But I'm not sure about what is going on, here...something very important I think. And it is so good, you have a T who can look at that honestly with you. I think it has to do with needs that were never met, and those longings, maybe very young longings, getting triggered by a situation where we are genuinely accepted and nurtured.
What do you think?
BB
Hi BB,
I can understand where you're struggling. One thing I will say that your description made me think of is just how many times my T has told me he wasn't as good at a lot of this stuff (especially the non-defensiveness) earlier in his career. He's been practicing for 32 years. You didn't really mention your Ts age. I'm wondering if he's working on doing the right thing but just lacks experience? In that case, the fact that when you confront him with his behavior, he takes responsibility for it is a really good sign. You have to weigh that and your attachment to him against what the disruptions and mis-steps are costing you and decide if it's worth it. I will tell you though if you stay, his later patients will owe you a debt of gratitude. I know I am REALLY grateful to the clients that my T learned from. Sorry this wasn't more definitive, it's a tough call to make for someone else.
AG
I can understand where you're struggling. One thing I will say that your description made me think of is just how many times my T has told me he wasn't as good at a lot of this stuff (especially the non-defensiveness) earlier in his career. He's been practicing for 32 years. You didn't really mention your Ts age. I'm wondering if he's working on doing the right thing but just lacks experience? In that case, the fact that when you confront him with his behavior, he takes responsibility for it is a really good sign. You have to weigh that and your attachment to him against what the disruptions and mis-steps are costing you and decide if it's worth it. I will tell you though if you stay, his later patients will owe you a debt of gratitude. I know I am REALLY grateful to the clients that my T learned from. Sorry this wasn't more definitive, it's a tough call to make for someone else.
AG
Sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot like that...but your reply was really helpful...I hadn't thought about that, actually weighing the disruptions against the good stuff and thinking it through logically. I just kind of thought I almost had no choice but to go with my emotions! I'm not sure I could leave even if I decided logically I am getting less out of it than I should. It's confusing because my T is old, and very, very experienced. If he wasn't, than some of his (as I expereince it) defensiveness, or "mistakes" (dare I say it?)would make more sense. For example, he workds very hard at getting me to ask him for what I need, and then when I do, he sometimes forgets about me. I know he is very busy, but still...I think he has over 30 years experience. He won't be pinned down to any method, his approach is very individual, his own thing and tailored to the individual client, say he, and he even said I won't find anything like it out there, when I was really questioning his care at one point. I know you can't answer the question for me, but just rambling a bit on about it, yet again. Overall, I really think he's great, but, man, when he hurts, he hurts badly, I have to say. He just seems to pick the ONE thing that will hurt most, and then does/says THAT. How many times should I keep saying, "ouch that hurt" before I start to feel stupid? I think I am just easily, easily hurt. I should say that things have been very much less hurtful than they used to be lately, he seems to have picked up on something or other and is treating me differently somehow, so hopefully, all of this will just become unpleasant memory and I will continue to grow towards where I need to be with his guidance!
Ok, thanks for your reply, AG. I sign off now!
((((AG)))
BB
UV, where are you? I promise to let you and SG get back at your conversation now! sorry!
I know he is very busy, but still...I think he has over 30 years experience. He won't be pinned down to any method, his approach is very individual, his own thing and tailored to the individual client, say he, and he even said I won't find anything like it out there, when I was really questioning his care at one point. I know you can't answer the question for me, but just rambling a bit on about it, yet again. Overall, I really think he's great, but, man, when he hurts, he hurts badly, I have to say. He just seems to pick the ONE thing that will hurt most, and then does/says THAT. How many times should I keep saying, "ouch that hurt" before I start to feel stupid? I think I am just easily, easily hurt. I should say that things have been very much less hurtful than they used to be lately, he seems to have picked up on something or other and is treating me differently somehow, so hopefully, all of this will just become unpleasant memory and I will continue to grow towards where I need to be with his guidance!Ok, thanks for your reply, AG. I sign off now!
((((AG)))
BB
UV, where are you? I promise to let you and SG get back at your conversation now! sorry!
Hi UV,
Your last post was so kind, and really helped snap me out of the urge to delete my post...so thank you...but this thread seems to have totally veered off the topic you started! How are the impulses going? Maybe our getting off the thread topic is serving as a distraction, in any case. When is your next session with your T? I'd like to hear how it goes. And again, I'm really glad you have a T who is working through this with you.
It was strange to hear that you had to stop reading my story because the way it was handled bothered you so much...even made you feel sick. Wow. I am sorry that it upset you that much...but I also have to say thank you for telling me that. I was feeling really sad and upset again after posting about it, in two ways...just feeling the emotions again was one, and then later, upset with myself for forgetting that it really wasn't my fault. So getting your perspective really helped snap me out of that. Thank you.
The projective identification idea is interesting. I never thought of him picking up on my fear and making it his own, so to speak. I do think sometimes he projected things on to me...the time limit issue, for example. I think he felt guilty for coming out early to get me in the beginning, and realized he shouldn't be doing that...but then somewhere along the line he turned it into, I must be coming early to try to manipulate him into getting more time. Which I know wasn't the case at all, but it explains why he was so resistant to my trying to bring it up and explain it later on.
And yes I totally agree with it being so incredibly important to be direct. When they told me I was getting switched to another T, aside from how it was done, in a way I felt relieved, because part of me knew he really did not want me for a patient anymore. But I was expecting to be told that he had reached his own limitations, and I had decided I was okay with that. I certainly did not expect him to act the way he acted in that transfer session, and to be told it was my feelings that got in the way of the therapy. That just hurt all over again because somewhere I knew that was a lie and a cover up. But no way to prove it or resolve anything. Yuck.
And I think you are right about the T's attachment style being a factor here. What is so ironic is that all my reading started with a book he recommended to me at our first session, Addicted to Love by Susan Peabody. When I came back next time and told him how much it spoke to exactly why I was there, he said he'd never even read the book.
But there were several times I thought, this career would be the perfect "hiding place" for the "seductive withholder" variety of love addict (by the way, the book explains that "love addicts" are simply people with attachment injuries, and the different varieties or combination of symptoms depends on the kinds of injuries received, and the person's inherent personality traits). But now I'm getting really cheeky about this, diagnosing my own ex-T...so I will stop here.
Again thank you for everything you said, UV...this has really helped ME. Now, whose thread was this again? Please let us know how things go regarding your impulses, and how your T helps you through this. I look forward to getting to know you better.
Take care,
SG
Your last post was so kind, and really helped snap me out of the urge to delete my post...so thank you...but this thread seems to have totally veered off the topic you started! How are the impulses going? Maybe our getting off the thread topic is serving as a distraction, in any case. When is your next session with your T? I'd like to hear how it goes. And again, I'm really glad you have a T who is working through this with you.
It was strange to hear that you had to stop reading my story because the way it was handled bothered you so much...even made you feel sick. Wow. I am sorry that it upset you that much...but I also have to say thank you for telling me that. I was feeling really sad and upset again after posting about it, in two ways...just feeling the emotions again was one, and then later, upset with myself for forgetting that it really wasn't my fault. So getting your perspective really helped snap me out of that. Thank you.
The projective identification idea is interesting. I never thought of him picking up on my fear and making it his own, so to speak. I do think sometimes he projected things on to me...the time limit issue, for example. I think he felt guilty for coming out early to get me in the beginning, and realized he shouldn't be doing that...but then somewhere along the line he turned it into, I must be coming early to try to manipulate him into getting more time. Which I know wasn't the case at all, but it explains why he was so resistant to my trying to bring it up and explain it later on.
And yes I totally agree with it being so incredibly important to be direct. When they told me I was getting switched to another T, aside from how it was done, in a way I felt relieved, because part of me knew he really did not want me for a patient anymore. But I was expecting to be told that he had reached his own limitations, and I had decided I was okay with that. I certainly did not expect him to act the way he acted in that transfer session, and to be told it was my feelings that got in the way of the therapy. That just hurt all over again because somewhere I knew that was a lie and a cover up. But no way to prove it or resolve anything. Yuck.
And I think you are right about the T's attachment style being a factor here. What is so ironic is that all my reading started with a book he recommended to me at our first session, Addicted to Love by Susan Peabody. When I came back next time and told him how much it spoke to exactly why I was there, he said he'd never even read the book.
But there were several times I thought, this career would be the perfect "hiding place" for the "seductive withholder" variety of love addict (by the way, the book explains that "love addicts" are simply people with attachment injuries, and the different varieties or combination of symptoms depends on the kinds of injuries received, and the person's inherent personality traits). But now I'm getting really cheeky about this, diagnosing my own ex-T...so I will stop here. Again thank you for everything you said, UV...this has really helped ME. Now, whose thread was this again?
Please let us know how things go regarding your impulses, and how your T helps you through this. I look forward to getting to know you better.Take care,
SG
UV- i am running out the door. i can relate to how you are feeling. like others, i also do not know the answers. however, ive been in this state. and what has helped me when i cannot find an answer is to distract myself from the feeling.
exercise or meditate and do stuff that allows me to be physical so i can keep out of my head. sometimes, when i put something down for a bit and come back to it, i have a clearer perspective.
perhaps not an analytical solution but a worthwhile one, none the less.
enjoy the day.
rock
exercise or meditate and do stuff that allows me to be physical so i can keep out of my head. sometimes, when i put something down for a bit and come back to it, i have a clearer perspective.
perhaps not an analytical solution but a worthwhile one, none the less.
enjoy the day.
rock
UV I’m sorry I have no experience of feelings for a T so am at a loss to say anything useful or helpful about your situation. BUT some of the things you said in your posts have got me curious and I’m wondering if you couldn’t explain something for me?
You used the term ‘projective identification’ - something I’ve come across recently in reading and also had my ex-T claim that it happened between us once (he then admitted actually HE was the one feeling the feeling not me the one ‘projecting’ it). Like you initially, I don’t get it at all, how is it possible for someone else to actually feel something all by themselves that apparently is something I am feeling and in some magical mysterious way am ‘making’ the other feel? How can someone claim to be feeling something, but that it’s not their feeling, that actually it’s mine? I can’t get my head around that one, and wondered whether you had any insights into this that would help me understand it? Sorry not being very supportive here, I do want you to know I’m reading your posts and sending you good thoughts.
LL
SG I’m glad you can bear to keep your post up - apart from anything else it’s such an honest and clear account of something that I guarantee lots of others can relate to, so consider it as one of those posts whose value resides in what others get from it (me for one ).
I've been trying to catch up on posts today and as there's quite a lot I wanted to say in response to your post, I'm going to leave it till I can concentrate better - hope you're doing ok in the meantime!
LL
You used the term ‘projective identification’ - something I’ve come across recently in reading and also had my ex-T claim that it happened between us once (he then admitted actually HE was the one feeling the feeling not me the one ‘projecting’ it). Like you initially, I don’t get it at all, how is it possible for someone else to actually feel something all by themselves that apparently is something I am feeling and in some magical mysterious way am ‘making’ the other feel? How can someone claim to be feeling something, but that it’s not their feeling, that actually it’s mine? I can’t get my head around that one, and wondered whether you had any insights into this that would help me understand it? Sorry not being very supportive here, I do want you to know I’m reading your posts and sending you good thoughts.
LL
SG I’m glad you can bear to keep your post up - apart from anything else it’s such an honest and clear account of something that I guarantee lots of others can relate to, so consider it as one of those posts whose value resides in what others get from it (me for one
).I've been trying to catch up on posts today and as there's quite a lot I wanted to say in response to your post, I'm going to leave it till I can concentrate better - hope you're doing ok in the meantime!
LL
UV, I think it's great that you are feeling this way about your T. Even if it gets annoying and frustrating that's the way to go. I think the impulses come from the child part of you. Isn't it that children act on impulses and emotions? Did you tell him about these impulses? I guess it's his task to make sure you will not get hurt by trying to act out these impulses. They must be a good thing, a part of you emerging from the unconscious. And it's his job to keep you safe, which it's sounds he is very much capable of. I think he should be able to help you with these impulses and maintain safe boundaries. Well, as usuall, the best way to deal with it (but not the easiest one) in therapy is to tell your T how you feel. I'm curious what did you T said about the impulses?
I think when I was in similar state, I sometimes felt I just would like to grab him and cuddle him. I know it was the child who wanted this. It did not happen often, but sometimes, when the child-me would gather enough courage to tell him about some feelings I had, he would lean forward in his chair, look at me straight and listen really attentatively, I would feel so happy about him being so present and accepting and if I could, I would reach for him and just put my arms around him and hold him closely.
I remember almost the exact same thing. It just happened all of a sudden, that the "judging eye" just disappeared, and suddenly I felt so strong and confident as never before. That was great. I could hardly think about anything else except my T, but I felt as I wasn't afraid of anything (in the outside world). I started to feel much more contained within myself, as never before. The child in me was safe and taken care of. I don't feel this way as much now. It kind of diminished, but it's not because I stopped loving my T. I think we are going into the deeper waters, so I'm feeling a bit less secure within myself now.
UV, I just read about your session. Well, sometimes it feels like we don't connect that much, but still we do get some important things said. So maybe it was not at all so unproductive. I had similar impulse to text him once, after I've heard that a friend who is also in therapy texted her T. So I wondered if I could do it too, but I was too scared that I would invade my T's privacy. It really was scary to text him, it was a test for both me and him. For me - if I can break through some of my fear of rejection and for him, if I can trust him that I won't be rejected. I think you may be in a similar spot now. Well, we worked that through, and I'm sure you will too. Your T reminds me a bit of mine, what he says and how he react. Or perhaps you and me build up similar defenses within ourselves. I certainly can relate to quite a lot you said about your relationship with your T.
The mother... I don't hate my mother, but I want to get away from her. When I talk to her (on the phone, not too often) I feel like my mind is narrowing down, like I'm contracting, there is less of me, I'm loosing touch with who I am in order to be able t relate to her. It does not have anything to do with intelectual gap between us, but there is a gap on some other level. Eventually I'm getting pissed off that I hve to shut down a lot of myself to be able to relate to her for a couple of minutes. I don't have to do that with my T. I can expand with him, but I shrink down with her. WTF?? Anyway, nevermind. Just something you wrote about your mother, brought back some of my annoyance at my mother.
I think when I was in similar state, I sometimes felt I just would like to grab him and cuddle him. I know it was the child who wanted this. It did not happen often, but sometimes, when the child-me would gather enough courage to tell him about some feelings I had, he would lean forward in his chair, look at me straight and listen really attentatively, I would feel so happy about him being so present and accepting and if I could, I would reach for him and just put my arms around him and hold him closely.
quote:One other noticable thing-after falling in love with him, I have not once felt the self-worth issues-despair, self-loathing.
I remember almost the exact same thing. It just happened all of a sudden, that the "judging eye" just disappeared, and suddenly I felt so strong and confident as never before. That was great. I could hardly think about anything else except my T, but I felt as I wasn't afraid of anything (in the outside world). I started to feel much more contained within myself, as never before. The child in me was safe and taken care of. I don't feel this way as much now. It kind of diminished, but it's not because I stopped loving my T. I think we are going into the deeper waters, so I'm feeling a bit less secure within myself now.
UV, I just read about your session. Well, sometimes it feels like we don't connect that much, but still we do get some important things said. So maybe it was not at all so unproductive. I had similar impulse to text him once, after I've heard that a friend who is also in therapy texted her T. So I wondered if I could do it too, but I was too scared that I would invade my T's privacy. It really was scary to text him, it was a test for both me and him. For me - if I can break through some of my fear of rejection and for him, if I can trust him that I won't be rejected. I think you may be in a similar spot now. Well, we worked that through, and I'm sure you will too. Your T reminds me a bit of mine, what he says and how he react. Or perhaps you and me build up similar defenses within ourselves. I certainly can relate to quite a lot you said about your relationship with your T.
The mother... I don't hate my mother, but I want to get away from her. When I talk to her (on the phone, not too often) I feel like my mind is narrowing down, like I'm contracting, there is less of me, I'm loosing touch with who I am in order to be able t relate to her. It does not have anything to do with intelectual gap between us, but there is a gap on some other level. Eventually I'm getting pissed off that I hve to shut down a lot of myself to be able to relate to her for a couple of minutes. I don't have to do that with my T. I can expand with him, but I shrink down with her. WTF?? Anyway, nevermind. Just something you wrote about your mother, brought back some of my annoyance at my mother.
Hey there UV thanks so much for explaining about PI. Have to confess I still can’t get my head around it but as you say (and I’ve read myself) psych literature is full of the term so it must be real (lol).
But I’m going to try and pin it down some more, with your help if you don’t mind (I have a bad tendency to need to understand everything, figuring that if I can get an intellectual handle on a concept, then I can fit my own experience to it and that makes me feel a bit safer!)
I get how someone can feel something in response to something going on in us of which we ourselves may not be aware (example: smiling being nice feeling warm and friendly towards someone saying nice friendly things but at the same time underneath feeling really anxious, scared, defensive, and the other subconsciously picks up on that anxiety and gets at least confused about the messages I am sending, if not actively responding to the anxiety either by feeling anxious/threatened themselves, or (more likely) getting angry as a defence, wanting to pull away.)
I can also understand projection itself, particularly in a paranoid context - for example being extremely angry but having to repress it - therefore being totally unaware of that rage - and as a result experiencing people being judgemental, angry, punishing etc (projecting onto them one’s own rage - although I’d add a caveat there and say that it’s not MY anger I’m experiencing in them, but rather my FEAR of the terrible consequences of owning my anger that makes me see them as hostile and judgemental and punishing.)
On the other hand, your example of feeling disgust around your mother - it being a feeling you can’t work out where it comes from, does make sense. That you can be around someone and can suddenly start feeling something for no apparent reason which is the result of subconsciously picking up on that feeling in the other, a feeling which is somehow influencing how they are (with your mother for instance, if she is in the grip of self-disgust - unaware of it - and that is subtley influencing her behaviour, words, gestures, expression, general body language all of which convey an ‘aura’ which would inspire disgust in someone else - then yes, maybe it does make sense after all. Hm. Got me thinking now - I’ve spent my entire life taking ‘responsibility’ for everything I feel - assuming that whatever I feel is caused by something in me - now I’m wondering if it’s possible to look at how I feel around some people and maybe consider that I’m actually picking up on how THEIR feelings are manifesting themselves in their behaviour etc and unconsciously reacting to it. ie that you don’t really feel that she’s disgusting, but that because her feeling of self disgust is effectively making her present herself in some way as disgusting so you are almost obliged to feel it. Hm sorry just musing aloud I think I sort of understand it.
What I can’t quite grasp is how my unacknowledged/unaware feeling (eg anger or fear) can somehow manifest itself in another without their having a major input into how they respond.
Hmm maybe in that case, the fact that I am angry but unaware of it - but in some way or another that anger is nevertheless influencing my behaviour/words/expressions which end up somehow ‘making’ the other feel anger as a response to me? Hmm again, but that’s still THEIR feeling, they are responding with anger because something I’m doing/saying is basically pissing them off. The only way I can see PI working is in the subject himself - ie I am projecting my anger onto someone and I then experience that person as feeling angry. Gah I still can’t get it properly!
It’s all a bit of a minefield isn’t it, because at what point can you say for certain - oh I’m not really feeling this feeling, it’s not mine, it’s the other person’s feeling that I am experiencing. Could make it very easy for a T (or anyone for that matter) to disown their own feelings and effectively ‘blame’ the client for ‘making’ them feel that way.
Oh as for not having feelings for a T - I don’t know I just haven’t met a T who inspires good thoughts or feelings in me about him/her - I don’t count the single session I had with a potential new T where I came away thinking I liked her, only to have her subsequently transform into a really negative person (she terminated me in the third session!) On the other hand I have LOTS of negative feelings about most of the Ts I’ve seen.
Having said that I recently met a new T whom I did really like straight away and continued to like her for the next two sessions. And after the fourth session (where I suddenly decided, totally irrationally, that she’s actually not such a great kind caring wonderful T as I’d thought) I’m beginning to suspect that I’ve just encountered the demon of positive transference, for the first time in my long and chequered history of relationships with Ts. It (as well as a whole lot of other stuff to do with Ts and trying to get back into therapy) has thrown me for a real loop and I’m only now getting back to a rational frame of mind enough to start thinking it through. Will doubtless be posting about it soon.
UV you’re going through so much at the moment - I so hope your Pdoc can guide you through all the stuff that’s rising up and threatening you. If you can bear to, keep posting here, what you say about things is so interesting and helpful.
LL
But I’m going to try and pin it down some more, with your help if you don’t mind (I have a bad tendency to need to understand everything, figuring that if I can get an intellectual handle on a concept, then I can fit my own experience to it and that makes me feel a bit safer!)
I get how someone can feel something in response to something going on in us of which we ourselves may not be aware (example: smiling being nice feeling warm and friendly towards someone saying nice friendly things but at the same time underneath feeling really anxious, scared, defensive, and the other subconsciously picks up on that anxiety and gets at least confused about the messages I am sending, if not actively responding to the anxiety either by feeling anxious/threatened themselves, or (more likely) getting angry as a defence, wanting to pull away.)
I can also understand projection itself, particularly in a paranoid context - for example being extremely angry but having to repress it - therefore being totally unaware of that rage - and as a result experiencing people being judgemental, angry, punishing etc (projecting onto them one’s own rage - although I’d add a caveat there and say that it’s not MY anger I’m experiencing in them, but rather my FEAR of the terrible consequences of owning my anger that makes me see them as hostile and judgemental and punishing.)
On the other hand, your example of feeling disgust around your mother - it being a feeling you can’t work out where it comes from, does make sense. That you can be around someone and can suddenly start feeling something for no apparent reason which is the result of subconsciously picking up on that feeling in the other, a feeling which is somehow influencing how they are (with your mother for instance, if she is in the grip of self-disgust - unaware of it - and that is subtley influencing her behaviour, words, gestures, expression, general body language all of which convey an ‘aura’ which would inspire disgust in someone else - then yes, maybe it does make sense after all. Hm. Got me thinking now - I’ve spent my entire life taking ‘responsibility’ for everything I feel - assuming that whatever I feel is caused by something in me - now I’m wondering if it’s possible to look at how I feel around some people and maybe consider that I’m actually picking up on how THEIR feelings are manifesting themselves in their behaviour etc and unconsciously reacting to it. ie that you don’t really feel that she’s disgusting, but that because her feeling of self disgust is effectively making her present herself in some way as disgusting so you are almost obliged to feel it. Hm sorry just musing aloud I think I sort of understand it.
What I can’t quite grasp is how my unacknowledged/unaware feeling (eg anger or fear) can somehow manifest itself in another without their having a major input into how they respond.
Hmm maybe in that case, the fact that I am angry but unaware of it - but in some way or another that anger is nevertheless influencing my behaviour/words/expressions which end up somehow ‘making’ the other feel anger as a response to me? Hmm again, but that’s still THEIR feeling, they are responding with anger because something I’m doing/saying is basically pissing them off. The only way I can see PI working is in the subject himself - ie I am projecting my anger onto someone and I then experience that person as feeling angry. Gah I still can’t get it properly!
It’s all a bit of a minefield isn’t it, because at what point can you say for certain - oh I’m not really feeling this feeling, it’s not mine, it’s the other person’s feeling that I am experiencing. Could make it very easy for a T (or anyone for that matter) to disown their own feelings and effectively ‘blame’ the client for ‘making’ them feel that way.
Oh as for not having feelings for a T - I don’t know I just haven’t met a T who inspires good thoughts or feelings in me about him/her - I don’t count the single session I had with a potential new T where I came away thinking I liked her, only to have her subsequently transform into a really negative person (she terminated me in the third session!) On the other hand I have LOTS of negative feelings about most of the Ts I’ve seen.
Having said that I recently met a new T whom I did really like straight away and continued to like her for the next two sessions. And after the fourth session (where I suddenly decided, totally irrationally, that she’s actually not such a great kind caring wonderful T as I’d thought) I’m beginning to suspect that I’ve just encountered the demon of positive transference, for the first time in my long and chequered history of relationships with Ts. It (as well as a whole lot of other stuff to do with Ts and trying to get back into therapy) has thrown me for a real loop and I’m only now getting back to a rational frame of mind enough to start thinking it through. Will doubtless be posting about it soon.
UV you’re going through so much at the moment - I so hope your Pdoc can guide you through all the stuff that’s rising up and threatening you. If you can bear to, keep posting here, what you say about things is so interesting and helpful.
LL
SG finally I have had some time to properly reply to your post!
Mothers! My mother cleared off when I was three - and though I’ve kept in close touch with her over the years since then, she has never properly acknowledged the damage she’s done - in fact she plays a wonderfully manipulative game of mea culpa, bewailing how guilty she felt/feels about it that is designed exclusively to deflect blame, anger or censure from others (the ‘look I’M suffering so much from all this guilt, how could anyone be so heartless as to heap more coals on MY suffering by not sympathizing with how hard it is for ME’ tactic...ack ack ack)
Closure in this sense, which I suspect is what you wanted both from ex-bf and ex-T, is for her to actually come straight out and say SORRY, I hurt you, I acknowledge that hurt and can see exactly how it would have made you feel. Protestations of feeling guilty just don’t cut it - not without a genuine recognition of the harm inflicted.
And like UV, I often get a strange sense of real malevolence from my mother - as if a curtain shifts and suddenly there’s this malign presence showing itself briefly behind the smiles and the nice words. And SG like yours, my mother is a past master at using people - she’s not so open as to get caught out doing it, it’s all very manipulative and subtle gah gah gah I’ve been telling myself to put up a thread about mothers maybe I’ll do that soon otherwise this one could get outrageously long (and end up totally off topic!)
Anyway.
Aaarrrgghh! That whole episode with your T interpreting your arriving early at the clinic solely in order to manipulate him into giving you extra time - SG I feel impotent rage in me reading about that I know that situation so well - having shitty game playing ‘I’m going to get for me’ motives attributed to me when there was nothing of the sort going on. And to neither be believed nor even heard when I try to explain that that’s NOT my motive.
To me that says really clearly that your T was an a***hole (sorry I don’t mean to put you down for your feelings towards him, it’s just such a dirty little power game he was playing) - the arrogance of the man to attribute motives and base ones at that, a) to cover up his own failing in keeping to boundaries - whatever the reason and b) to deliberately impute some kind of manipulative little girl game playing to you without either hearing your explanation or crediting you with telling the truth. Grr everything I’ve read about him makes me want to take him by the throat and rub his face in his own inadequacies and arrogance.
(((( SG )))) I am totally unsurprised by this - it doesn’t matter how well you know your own motives, how innocent you actually were and how much of what you brought to the therapy with him was based on sound knowledge of what the therapy ought to be about - the fact that these people, your T and the others involved in transferring you, are supposed to be the professionals, and that trusting them to know more or less what they are doing, in YOUR best interests, is impossible to rationally set aside. So even though you can see and know that something was very terribly wrong with the way everything was handled, with their responses, with their refusal to hear you or even credit you with being a sane rational person - it comes down to one against the many, and that ‘one’ (you) being in an unequal position power wise to start off with, means that no matter what, you’re going to be made to experience it all as something ‘wrong’ with you, as its all being somehow your fault. It’s a testament to your strength and courage that you were able to work through all that crap he (and they) laid on you and come out with a burgeoning sense that actually it was HIS crap, not yours. Which doesn’t stop it hurting, and doesn’t stop the need for confirmation of that all the same.
For what it’s worth SG, the fact that this guy was CBT explains a lot (to me anyway!) - I have a growing suspicion that Ts who specialize or rely very much on the CBT approach have a bit of a power game going on - it must be so satisfying to the ego to have this array of techniques and methods and interpretations that you can impose on a client, and avoid any kind of real therapeutic work (ie closeness, actual involvement with a client) by being able to challenge everything a client says and thinks and believes, all in the name of ‘helping’. Must make them feel really superior and together and all knowing. Call me jaundiced (lol) but I think CBT helps the therapist more than the client. There that’s my rant about CBT with sincere apologies to anyone who finds CBT helpful.
About redirecting impulses - and the diagram he drew of battleships, in retrospect it sounds like he was trying to tell you that YOU had to redirect them, that YOU had to somehow magically (CBT-wise) find a more ‘appropriate’ object for those impulses - rather than being an invitation to you to work through them with him. *Sigh* you gotta wonder how much damage therapists actually can do, and clients half the time don’t even realize it. Hypervigilance has its uses!
This comment actually says to me that you were on your own side! That you could detect fear and defensiveness in them tells me that you knew somewhere inside you that they had something to be afraid of, that you were effectively in the right and they were concerned to stop you showing up their failings. Small comfort, but a big plus in terms of your ability to hold emotionally to what you know to be right for you. Well done you!!!!
Ok I’m talking too much as usual and not sure that much of it is terribly relevant. I hope you do keep this post out here, there’s so much of value in it.
Hugs to you SG, you’ve been through a really really bad time with this and I’m so glad you’ve found a T who understands what you need. Also want to send you hugs and support for what you're going through with H at the moment (read in another thread) - hang in there, it's July now, not too long till the couples therapy soon (((( SG ))))
LL
quote:So she essentially abandoned us...and yes she has never admitted her part in any of it, not to any meaningful extent (unless it's to worm her way back in so she can eventually use me again) so yes, in my case those connections could definitely be there.
Mothers! My mother cleared off when I was three - and though I’ve kept in close touch with her over the years since then, she has never properly acknowledged the damage she’s done - in fact she plays a wonderfully manipulative game of mea culpa, bewailing how guilty she felt/feels about it that is designed exclusively to deflect blame, anger or censure from others (the ‘look I’M suffering so much from all this guilt, how could anyone be so heartless as to heap more coals on MY suffering by not sympathizing with how hard it is for ME’ tactic...ack ack ack)
Closure in this sense, which I suspect is what you wanted both from ex-bf and ex-T, is for her to actually come straight out and say SORRY, I hurt you, I acknowledge that hurt and can see exactly how it would have made you feel. Protestations of feeling guilty just don’t cut it - not without a genuine recognition of the harm inflicted.
And like UV, I often get a strange sense of real malevolence from my mother - as if a curtain shifts and suddenly there’s this malign presence showing itself briefly behind the smiles and the nice words. And SG like yours, my mother is a past master at using people - she’s not so open as to get caught out doing it, it’s all very manipulative and subtle gah gah gah I’ve been telling myself to put up a thread about mothers maybe I’ll do that soon otherwise this one could get outrageously long (and end up totally off topic!)
Anyway.
Aaarrrgghh! That whole episode with your T interpreting your arriving early at the clinic solely in order to manipulate him into giving you extra time - SG I feel impotent rage in me reading about that I know that situation so well - having shitty game playing ‘I’m going to get for me’ motives attributed to me when there was nothing of the sort going on. And to neither be believed nor even heard when I try to explain that that’s NOT my motive.
To me that says really clearly that your T was an a***hole (sorry I don’t mean to put you down for your feelings towards him, it’s just such a dirty little power game he was playing) - the arrogance of the man to attribute motives and base ones at that, a) to cover up his own failing in keeping to boundaries - whatever the reason and b) to deliberately impute some kind of manipulative little girl game playing to you without either hearing your explanation or crediting you with telling the truth. Grr everything I’ve read about him makes me want to take him by the throat and rub his face in his own inadequacies and arrogance.
quote:I tried to bring up the attachment stuff so many times but was told I was getting confused and not understanding what I was reading, they would not listen and kept dismissing me and would not let me talk. So, so frustrating and painful.
I felt crushed, like I had trusted so much and jumped off a building only to splatter all over the cement. For a long time I just felt literally broken, visceral shame, as if I were garbage to the core and had been thrown out. Especially right after the transfer session I would turn red and shake with these shame feelings,
(((( SG )))) I am totally unsurprised by this - it doesn’t matter how well you know your own motives, how innocent you actually were and how much of what you brought to the therapy with him was based on sound knowledge of what the therapy ought to be about - the fact that these people, your T and the others involved in transferring you, are supposed to be the professionals, and that trusting them to know more or less what they are doing, in YOUR best interests, is impossible to rationally set aside. So even though you can see and know that something was very terribly wrong with the way everything was handled, with their responses, with their refusal to hear you or even credit you with being a sane rational person - it comes down to one against the many, and that ‘one’ (you) being in an unequal position power wise to start off with, means that no matter what, you’re going to be made to experience it all as something ‘wrong’ with you, as its all being somehow your fault. It’s a testament to your strength and courage that you were able to work through all that crap he (and they) laid on you and come out with a burgeoning sense that actually it was HIS crap, not yours. Which doesn’t stop it hurting, and doesn’t stop the need for confirmation of that all the same.
For what it’s worth SG, the fact that this guy was CBT explains a lot (to me anyway!) - I have a growing suspicion that Ts who specialize or rely very much on the CBT approach have a bit of a power game going on - it must be so satisfying to the ego to have this array of techniques and methods and interpretations that you can impose on a client, and avoid any kind of real therapeutic work (ie closeness, actual involvement with a client) by being able to challenge everything a client says and thinks and believes, all in the name of ‘helping’. Must make them feel really superior and together and all knowing. Call me jaundiced (lol) but I think CBT helps the therapist more than the client. There that’s my rant about CBT with sincere apologies to anyone who finds CBT helpful.
About redirecting impulses - and the diagram he drew of battleships, in retrospect it sounds like he was trying to tell you that YOU had to redirect them, that YOU had to somehow magically (CBT-wise) find a more ‘appropriate’ object for those impulses - rather than being an invitation to you to work through them with him. *Sigh* you gotta wonder how much damage therapists actually can do, and clients half the time don’t even realize it. Hypervigilance has its uses!
quote:It was my perception that my former T (and the couples T at that clinic) seemed afraid of me, especially at the end, even though they never came right out and said it.
This comment actually says to me that you were on your own side! That you could detect fear and defensiveness in them tells me that you knew somewhere inside you that they had something to be afraid of, that you were effectively in the right and they were concerned to stop you showing up their failings. Small comfort, but a big plus in terms of your ability to hold emotionally to what you know to be right for you. Well done you!!!!
Ok I’m talking too much as usual and not sure that much of it is terribly relevant. I hope you do keep this post out here, there’s so much of value in it.
Hugs to you SG, you’ve been through a really really bad time with this and I’m so glad you’ve found a T who understands what you need. Also want to send you hugs and support for what you're going through with H at the moment (read in another thread) - hang in there, it's July now, not too long till the couples therapy soon (((( SG ))))
LL
Thanks for your post, LL...and I read in another thread you mentioned seeing that T for a fourth time, and now not so sure about her...I hope to see an update soon. Hugs to you {{{{{{{{LL}}}}}}}}
Oh yes you were spot on with the dodgy mea culpa games played by moms. Really that's just all about them too. Still not thinking of us and how it was for us. It is probably unconscious on their part...but still...leaves us feeling guilty instead of resolved. But at least we are learning better...
And what is it with that malevolent feeling? I get that from my mom too, in fact I'll do anything to avoid it because it's so terribly toxic and frightening. This is why I avoid conflict with her because that's when it comes out. It's just horrid. Some kind of competition, maybe? Bleah...don't want to think about it, I start getting shaky just imagining it.
Thanks for what you said about my experiences at that clinic...I'm so glad I'm not there anymore...and what you said is totally relevant and helpful, especially when I start to lapse back into thinking it must have been my fault, I really did screw up the therapy, I must be intrinsically bad or wrong or defective or whatever...it helps pull me back out of that.
(((((LL)))))
SG
Oh yes you were spot on with the dodgy mea culpa games played by moms. Really that's just all about them too. Still not thinking of us and how it was for us. It is probably unconscious on their part...but still...leaves us feeling guilty instead of resolved. But at least we are learning better...
And what is it with that malevolent feeling? I get that from my mom too, in fact I'll do anything to avoid it because it's so terribly toxic and frightening. This is why I avoid conflict with her because that's when it comes out. It's just horrid. Some kind of competition, maybe? Bleah...don't want to think about it, I start getting shaky just imagining it.
Thanks for what you said about my experiences at that clinic...I'm so glad I'm not there anymore...and what you said is totally relevant and helpful, especially when I start to lapse back into thinking it must have been my fault, I really did screw up the therapy, I must be intrinsically bad or wrong or defective or whatever...it helps pull me back out of that.
(((((LL)))))
SG