Blackbird:

We haven't officially met, so "hi"! I'm so sorry you're in such a bad place tonight. I feel for you...I can hear the aching in your heart.

quote:

I've been in an odd place all day today, as I often am- like I just don't know about the passage of time or where I am, what I should be doing, or what I have done all day. I feel bad for my kids, I just don't seem to be a real person for them, many, many days. How did I end like this? I don't think I really exist sometimes. I wish my P loved me, that's all I can think or live for

I feel like this most of the time myself, and it is a terrible way to feel. Now you know why I have to spill all my guts to my T on Friday. I can't go on living like this anymore. I don't know if it will help me to get it off my chest, but at this point, anything that might help feels like it's worth a try. I wish I had some words of wisdom and comfort, but I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in your feelings. Hang in there!

(((((HUGS)))))

MTF

BB

Sorry to hear you are in such a difficult place just now. That feeling of not being connected with life after a session is truly awful and very confusing. I remember when my kids were smaller, feeling totally diconnected from them and everything in the real world for days. Funny thing was, they never ever seemed to notice - You might find that you, as I am sure you are, are so practised at being a brilliant mum that you will still be very much the same wonderful mum for them, even in these times. You will feel the pain and disconnect way more than anybody will ever know.

As for body memories - I know them very well. They are (one of) my huge stumbling blocks in thererapy. I don't know offically how to describe and I'm imagining it might be different for everybody.
For me it's like having a trauma memory of something terrible - some have words attached, some have pictures some have a bit or none of both, but a deep felt sense of what happened. So, and I'll try to think of something that won't trigger anybody as an example, if the trauma was say someone being stepped on by an elephant, then they might get an overwhelming sensation again of EXACTLY the same pain in their foot, feel the same hurt and even see the same injury even though of course now it's not actually happening again now. Head can sometimes know that but body carries on reliving. I don't know if that helps at all, maybe for others it's different but that's sort of what happens for me - over and over and it's truly horrid and makes me feel like I am truly mad. I try and try to rationalise it and think my way out of happening again, but nothing seems to work.

BB take care, I hope today might feel a little easier for you. Keep posting

starfish

Hi BB

Yes I think being in therapy can make the body memories worse, all the things we've been shutting away come bubbling up and need to be expressed somehow. I have too been there with the rib sensation and it took a lot of talking about but now has almost gone and I know WHY I had that sensation and have finally been able to talk about it and get it somehow out of me. Other things have risen up and replaced it but I have several achievements to look back on when the current ones feel unbearable.

I know it is scary to tell your P - I don't believe he will think for a moment you are 'getting ideas and making them true'. My T always believes what I say, she says people just don't make up stuff like that. And it's true - it's too awful to make up. So I hope you might tell him and get the suport you need

No doubting you are ever anything but a good mum
and with sweet kids (little Blackbird chicks lol)

Hug to you to keep for when things feel tough

starfish

Sorry to butt into the thread like this - sorry Blackbird I haven’t got any experience of strong feelings for a therapist so I’ve got zilch in the way of shared experiences to offer - and I’d really like to, you sound in so much pain I wish there were something I could say to reach you. :hug:

I’ve butted in to ask about body memories. My question is, when you have body memories, how do you end up knowing they are body memories? Is there a point at which something clicks and you suddenly remember consciously the connection between the body memory and how it came to exist? Is it necessary to make some kind of conscious connection or do you just somehow ‘know’ what it’s all about? I’ve no idea what it’s about, but it sounds perfectly logical to me that you can store memories in your body without your conscious mind remembering them.

Lamplighter

This forum is truly amazing. I never ever thought I would or could be sitting here reading and responding to a thread on body memories because I never realised that there might be a safe place for me to do it, outside of my Ts office and that anybody else would understand and not think I was mad.

So thank you BB for your question and for dragonfly's, CT's and MTF's responses. I am not the only one who has this happen to them For me the hardest part is getting rid of them permanently and I know the first thing I have to do is acknowledge them to myself, them to my T, talk about them, put them back in context and talk about that event so it no longer terrifies me. Dragonfly, I would be really interested to know how you and your T manage these memories. For me, you have described the process just as it is. How do you then deal with them?

My difficulty is the saying and describing bit. I get easily embarrassed and then ashamed of anything personal or intimate and totally clam up. I know what needs to be said but don't know how. This isn't helped by the child in me getting very confused when triggered as to what is going on and even knowing the words to say. Does this make sense for any of you? How do some of you say difficult stuff/words? Do any of you feel that you might taint your T with what you say? So I tend to keep quiet and wait for the pain to go, rather than find the vocab to describe where it is When I have managed to even say a little, my T has always been very encouraging and supportive, unshocked and accepting, it's me who can't deal with it. So then I think I might be stuck with them.

AG, if you are reading this, have you any of your wise thoughts? Cheeky to ask, but you are a bit of a guru

BB, when is your next session? Hope you are ok and feeling a bit more connected and stronger.

starfish

Ooops so sorry Lamplighter I forgot to include you when saying thankyou.

In answer to your question

quote:

How do you end up knowing they are body memories?

I don't really know, but the sensations are so powerful and so strong and always for me the same. They also feel familiar - sort of a deja vu, even though I might not be able to place them. I think somewhere inside I have always been able to place mine - I have just avoided doing so at all costs. Can't cope with facing the reality. Maybe that's why they won't go away

Don't know if this answers your question a tincy bit

starfish

Dragonfly, thank you so much for your honesty. Yes your post has helped enormously. Just to read your words was so strange for me - I could have written nearly every one myself. Sad too that you have to go through it but relief that what happens to me is not a unique experience because I am mad or bad - or both!

I love the count to three and blurt it out method! Am going to give that a go for sure. Those words sit on my tongue but will not come out, I am not a prude but for some reason the words sound so stark in the confines of that room. I tell myself 'just say it. She knows what you're going to say anyway'. (Why do they always know? It's very irritating )

quote:

When the BM;'s have kicked in , then i have to stop and sit quietly and acknowledge the pain and keep telling myself that it will go and not to panic.It does go after a minute or two, but not before its taken the wind out of me. Its very hard at these times to try and stay in my head, without wandering off with the fairies!

Oh so true. But I tend to dissociate as soon as I feel any BMs coming, so never have the chance to sit them out. I think I assume when I feel them that it's happened again and I need to escape fast. I shall think more about your method of getting to a manageable point and sticking there before they kick in.

Thanks for that and for your reply,

starfish

Hi everyone,

I just want to thank you all for sharing so much in your contributions to this thread. I know it's really hard to write about. I don't have this experience of body memories but it really helps me to understand, and it's important in my life that I do understand because it affects people I'm close to.

Dragonfly, I just want to say that I read the post you deleted. It and the other things you've written here are enormously courageous, important and beautiful in their honesty. It's so rare for people to write about these things the way that they are. And yet we learn so much from reading about it, understanding how abuse affects people, understanding in depth and detail how the healing process works from people who are going through it. I understand that you felt like you needed to take it down to get back some equilibrium and I'm glad you acted to feel safe. I just want you to know that I read it and I wasn't disgusted or contaminated or upset - just awed by your beautiful honesty and generosity.

You guys are all making an amazing resource here for other people who are going through the same thing, now and in the future.

OK first may I say how honored I am to know you all. The incredible courage and strength displayed daily here is just amazing to see.

Dragonfly, I read your post before you took it down and was very moved. It was very brave of you to talk so openly about what happened to you and may I tell you that I am so sorry for what you experienced and having to deal with the horror of that. I actually felt sick reading your post because it was so familiar so I completely understood when I came back and you said you had gotten sick and taken it down. But please know this, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of, this was an act of evil that was done to you, and your extraordinary reaction is to use the knowledge you have gained to help others, and bring good out of evil. The pain of what happened will never entirely go away, but it does get easier to handle and the memories become less intrusive with time.

(((Dragonfly))))

Blackbird,
I am concerned with the description of your therapist. The impatience and defensiveness tell me that too much of him is in the room. Your description of your interaction about the yawn sounds like a re-enactment, not therapy. You expressed your feelings, your Ts reaction was to be dismissive of your feelings, and to explain to you why he didn't do anything wrong. And in the end you "felt forced" into giving him an apology. In other words, you had to suppress you're feelings and a genuine expression of who you really are in order to retain the relationship. That is the pattern most of us experienced as children that led us to therapy.

Transference can cause us to see problems that don't exist in the here and now. I spent several years with my therapist convinced he was either angry, fed up or going to abandon me and he never came close to being any of those things. But he NEVER dismissed my feelings. He heard them, understood them and helped me put them into context and understand just why it made sense that I felt that way.

So your T is probably sincere in what he's saying about caring about you, but he's allowing too many of his own feelings and insecurities to surface in therapy. This relationship, just like in childhood, should be ALL about your needs. It is your T's ethical responsibility to get his own needs met outside of your therapy. Having him put his own needs not to feel like he's screwing up or failing you BEFORE how you're feeling is just too reminiscient of the behavior that sends us to therapy in the first place. I'm glad you're paying attention to how you're feeling. You did the right thing, you spoke up about how you were feeling, but I really don't like the reaction.

And of course you won't believe what he said. My father told me over and over that he loved me while abusing me and completely ignoring my needs. I learned early and hard not to trust what people say. That's why it's important for a T to maintain a steady presence. They have to BE trustworthy, and caring and compassionate over and over and over again until you can learn to trust it.

Starfish, not cheeky at all, I love feeling wanted. But we need to lose the word guru, at least about me. The guru would be my T.

Body memories are difficult to deal with usually for three main reasons.

Reason #1: You were very young when whatever happened, happened. Our frontal lobe doesn't come "online" until around the age of three. That means before that age we lack the capacity to use symbols and abstract reasoning and language so that we do not form "normal" memories of events. So it is only the memories of the emotions which are encoded somatically in our bodies that are retained. So there's literally nothing there to connect these feelings too. And trying to articulate the feelings is so difficult because you literally had NO WORDS to describe what you were feeling when it happened. Which as an adult feels crazy.

Reason #2: Trauma is overwhelming by definition. Traumatic memories are often stored differenty because you were not able to process the emotions at the time or make sense of what was happening. So the events, and more importantly, the overly intense emotions are put away completely raw. So when the memory comes back, you experience it as taking place NOW, not something that happened that you are recalling. So you feel it in your body.

Reason #3: A very common defense for children who experience long term trauma is disassociation. You take yourself and your mind as far away from what is happening as you can manage. This can involve covering your eyes, closing your ears, or diving so deep into yourself that you literally ignore all sensory input. So it may be that you are missing visuals or sounds or anything concrete. But again, the emotions and feelings in your body were encoded and retained without you having to be conscious of them.

This is a big part of what makes processing this type of stuff so difficult. But what really makes it so difficult is that these feelings literally felt life threatening and overwhelming when you experienced them the first time. So on some level, it feels like when you let them out you are either going to be annihilated or you're going to destroy the person with you or both. It's very common for long term trauma victims to be so scared of their own emotions that they believe that experiencing those emotions will destroy them or their relationships. I know I went through it, one of my earliest emails from my T was to reassure me that he wasn't scared and I wasn't going to destroy anything.

So of course when these memories start to come back they feel incredibly threatening. It's not so much you're memory of what happened as it is the memory of how you felt that is so overwhelming. Add into that the fact that if your abuser was your attachment figure then no one was teaching you how to regulate your emotions and deal with intense and overwhelming feelings. You literally don't know how to tolerate these feelings. You need someone, a limbic other, who can regulate your feelings to contain you so that you can let them out. and you have to do it a bit at a time so as not to be overwhelmed. John Briere, a leading trauma expert, (h/t to True North!) talks about the theraputic window. You have to be present enough to experience the feelings but not do so too quickly so that you're not overwhelmed. It can be a really delicate balance.

So all of the fears and difficulties everyone is talking about is part and parcel of the process. And it's very right brain that's why no one can quite put into words how to do this. You have to just tolerate the fear and confusion and do as much as you're capable of at any given time. But each success, each time you can feel and express a little piece and recieve acceptance and understanding makes it infintesimally easier the next time. And as you learn to be able to regulate your emotions, the more you can tolerate. So eventually, you desensitize yourself to the memories and feelings evoked so that they're no longer threatening.

So you do the terrifying work of letting the feelings come and you struggle to put words on it until you can make sense of it. And I can tell you from my experience that you can trust your body. But I really do understand how confusing this feels. I have often had physical sensations and even movements and it's almost like being possessed, I'm flinching and moving and feeling pain and have no idea why, but it was in articulating as well as I could what it felt like that allowed me to make some kind of sense of what happened. And I've had to learn to live with the frustration of only knowing bits and pieces and knowing I may never fill in the gaps. I hope some of that helps.

And I'm sorry I've been MIA. I've been having a very difficult time being triggered about leaving therapy and coping with all the feelings it's been bringing up, and it's been very difficult to post, both about how I'm feeling because it's difficult to put into words and I'm working through it and because it hasn't left me feeling like I have very much energy beyond just struggling through my days. If I can ever figure out how to say it I'll post about it.

OK I'm a little worried about hitting the post button. I have a feeling this could be the longest post I've ever written. Which is saying alot. Anyone still awake, anyone?

AG

I'm still awake AG! Thank you for articulating all of that. Some of it I know but it's good to read it again and especially in your wording. I know it's been really hard for you to address your termination but you are being brave just to acknowledge that and please remember we are all here to support and listen to you.

Thanks for giving me some things to think about.

((((AG))))

TN

Hey BB-

quote:

CT-I just wanted to ask- or if anyone can, maybe you could give me a bit more input on the transference thing.

I think my previous post wasn't very relevant to your situation... I apologize for that. I think I was reading too much into some things, -hopefully I didn't confuse you with my ramblings. I think AG wonderfully answered your above question though, and expressed some very real concerns about your P.

-CT

Dragonfly

I’m so sorry that putting up that post triggered you so badly - especially when you put yourself through so much pain to write it in the first place. But I completely understand the need to withdraw - I get that with quite insignificant stuff I put up, never mind something as profoundly painful and frightening as what you are talking about. I’m sorry I didn’t get the chance to read it, even though I was probably on the board at the time (I was reading through previous threads and didn’t get back to current ones until you’d already deleted it). I really hope that writing it out has actually helped you in some small way, and maybe when you’re feeling a LOT stronger you might feel like reposting it. I wish I had been able to read it.

But what you explained in your next posts makes a lot of sense, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about such painful things.

Blackbird

AG has echoed my thoughts when I read your description of how your P is with you, especially the yawning and then discounting your feelings about it. (If my T yawned I’d be all over the place, never mind that it might be perfectly valid and ‘human’ to yawn, I’d expect him to acknowledge at least how it would affect me and to allow me to express how it makes me feel without invalidating those feelings by putting the onus on me to simply like it or lump it.)

But it’s also your other comments about your unease with him and yes I get that you’re confused about whether it’s ‘really’ happening or whether you are projecting or interpreting it according to ‘faulty’ perceptions on your part - nevertheless you ought to feel safe enough to talk to him about it without his turning it back on you. (I feel like that all the time, is it me or is it something I’m picking up in him that is really there - only I’m lucky enough to have a T who allows me to talk about it anyway so it’s getting easier to confront him regardless of whether it’s something I’m ‘inventing’ or not.)

I guess in the end if you’re getting enough support and understanding from him to make the therapy effective then that’s what matters. I tend to be a bit black and white now about picking up on therapists who give me cause to distrust them because in the past I always blamed me for how I reacted and ended up putting up with a lot of bad therapy as a result. I hope you can reach a point where you do get the reassurance you need (and so you should!), it’s always a horrible situation to have to think about changing therapists.

BB
I was sad to read your distress about starting this thread and so sorry you might feel guilty for causing any upset to anybody. I really don't think you did. What you posed was a really sensible question that other people might not have thought of asking or not been able to.

I have found the answers so helpful and very affirming for me and am so glad I had the chance to try and say how it is for me. I have never ever been able to talk to anybody about BMs apart from my T until now (and even have more questions to ask ) so for me to post my reply was an enormous step. So thank you BB . There is always a risk in triggering someone with what we write, but everybody seems to be sensitive and as careful as they can be.I hope I did not write anything that caused any discomfort to anybody.

Draginfly I did not see your post (but so wish I had as I just feel sure it would ring out true with me), but cannot begin tell you the power of your other posts and descriptions. I sat there reading it thinking: OMG it's not just me. How many others are there experiencing this? How brave of someone to describe how they feel and make themselves vulnerable in order to help others so effectively. I was profoundly moved that you were sharing something that was so similar to what I experience and myself feel such shame about. Thank you.

AG thank you too for your wise reply, you clarify and normalise a lot like my T does, maybe that's why I find your responses helpful!
The reasons you gave were spot on for me, some memories though I would have had words for - was at a verbal age - but I think fear stopped me ever processing verbally. And yes I totally dissociated at the time so have very jumbled recall of other things.

Thank you for telling me I can trust my body, I needed to hear that because I don't. It keeps remembering when I don't want it to and I guess I like to feel always in control, so it seems in many ways it has let me down for quite a while (many times and in many ways )

Thank you also for

quote:

So you do the terrifying work of letting the feelings come and you struggle to put words on it until you can make sense of it.

..that bit gives me hope that they will go. This is what my T keeps telling me and some have gone, or faded to become manageable at least. It's the putting words on it that is so very hard. I have Dragonfly's count to three strategy ,for when I'm ashamed of the words,but often I don't know what the word is I need, even simple ones can fail me.

Thanks really to all of you

starfish

Hi everybody,

I would like to add my thanks to BB, SF, DF, AG for posting about their experiences of body memories. I had heard of them but didn't really understand what they were until reading your descriptions. Now I realize that I hesitantly described one to my previous T in hopes of making sense of it. It was something I'd never told anyone but I'd always wondered about it. I felt kind of stupid even bringing it up, partly because it was so personal and embarrassing. He said it sounded like a trauma reaction but that's all, he didn't seem to think it was important enough to look at further, and I felt like I must be making too big of a deal about it so I didn't pursue it. But since reading your descriptions I've thought of another one I'd always wondered about too...so I will bring this up with the T I have now.

DF I read your post too before you took it down...and my heart just hurts to know you have been through so much horrific abuse...and I greatly admire you, and everyone else here, for your bravery in opening this up in your therapy, and to be willing to share it here. FWIW I think you verbalize beautifully. And I just loved your "feather" analogy

And BB, I agree with everything AG said about the way your T is behaving toward you. The T I have now is never, ever dismissive. Body language is an Extremely Important indicator of what is going on with a person, and it's just plain weird that he would be dismissive of your observations. The T I have now is always attentive, always open and relaxed and focused on me. I am very appreciative of it because I wouldn't feel safe with her otherwise, and I really do believe it is hard work to listen so well. I really think she should charge more for what she does. If she displayed the body language and other behaviors you described, it would definitely shut me down. So FWIW I don't think you are imagining it or projecting it.

SG

Dragonfly

Thank you so much for your incredible bravery and honesty. What happened to you was so very wrong - it is no wonder you find yourself in these difficult situations experiencing these terrible events again and again and my heart goes out you. Can I send you a strengthening hug for your wibbly moments as you wonder if the posting was ok? It was very much ok and will no doubt speak to both many people on this forum who have not had such experiences, as well as those that have. Our poor bodies cannot easily forget such injustices, even if our minds let us for a while.

Thank you again, take care,

starfish

Dragonfly

Thank you so much for reposting what you’d written. Reading the details of what’s been done to you has rendered me almost speechless - I can’t even begin to imagine how horrific it’s been for you and how unbelievably painful and terrifying it is for you having to deal with such things now. I am so angry about it how could anyone do such things. Sorry it’s not often I get so totally affected by someone else’s experiences but wow yours go way beyond nightmare land.

And thank you so much for explaining the way it finally emerges. Your posts have really helped me understand what goes on.

Got one question if you feel up to answering anymore on this frightening topic - now that you’ve started to make conscious connections between body pain and the past, are you able to assume that other body pain is actually body memory? I’m wondering because I’m guessing it would be both frightening but also confusing wondering whether a pain is a memory or actually a here and now pain unrelated to the past. Sorry I hope that isn’t triggering.

I really hope you are ok, and that the work you are doing with this will finally get you out of that nightmare. Please know that I am thinking of you :hug:

Dragonfly,

I have been following this thread and have read it all, even the post that you had deleted. I too have body memories... And I am so sorry for what you encountered in your life. No child should ever have to suffer so. (I can say that and mean it for other people). I continue to have body memories that I have learned from and those that are still a slight mystery to me. A part of me does not want to look into them. A part of me has decided to just put it all back into the box and just bury it. Any way, I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you and am honored to have been able to read your posts.

KS

Hi Dragonfly -

I'm so sorry you went through such horrible, horrible things.

I'm thinking of you, hoping you are taking care of yourself as you might need extra gentleness after posting this stuff.

Thinking too of the others in our community who have experienced these things, and sending warm thoughts to all of you.

KS
Hello from me, I don't think we've met
Thank you for you posting and I am too am so sorry for what you went through.

Iwould so agree with the

quote:

No child should ever have to suffer so. (I can say that and mean it for other people).

Do you mind if I ask you a question that struck me when I read that? You see I have had similar but slightly different, experiences myself, mostly tried to deny them, but now they've been bubbling up and out for a few years so I have had to start to painfully face them.

I find it hard to forgive myself or be compassionate to myself, tend to discount the enormity of what happened so I don't face the reality. My T often asks me how I would feel if what had happened to me had happened to someone else. That always puts me in a fix - why can I feel so strongly for others distress but not my own? Is that what you meant KS? I really don't know how I could deal with the reality - still not allowed myself to shed a tear for me - but was so very moved and saddened by Dragonfly's story. Does anybody have the same problem? Or ideas how to move this on? I feel so cold towards myself in sessions but it's only my defences I know.

starfish

Thanks Dragonfly

That is helpful for me. Helps to know I'm not the only one. . . again!! In answer to your suggestion, I agree cos children of that age always strike a chord with me and my heart -
I just can't bear to think about how others might have had similar, freaks me out totally. So with my stuff it's just easier to keep minimising too rather than face up to it's full awfullness

quote:

I am sat here thinking jeeeeeeeeeeez, this is the tame stuff! It isn't that bad guys!!

Exactly! Makes it so much easier to (not) deal with then. What if I did? Hmmmmm back to one of the first questions I ever asked here - just how do you cry? Feels all so scary, yet I know I can't move on unless I do. Sometimes wonder if I'll ever drop my guard enough.

So glad you've had a better day - it's been lovely - and the promise of spring in the air as always good and a sign of hope for me. Well done for the self soothing and nurturing DF - your T would be most impressed !!

starfish

No I'm not worried about crying infront of my T - she's probably the only person I could cry with and boy, we've talked about the pros and cons of it for so long. If I've ever got upset she has remained constant and caring - two things I never had from some people in my childhood. So I'm learning slowly that if I were to cry with her she wouldn't hurt me, leave me or punish me. I know that to be true but when I get upset it all goes out of the window and I freeze, ready for what must come next. I am the master of stopping myself crying, now I wonder if I ever will??

I always thought I never would cry - now I think one day I'll have to, to get rid of all this hurt inside me but it feels very very scary and I too am waiting with trepidation for the ton of bricks. Wonder what will happen and how I'll cope when I'm back home in the world and not in the safety of her office - where tears MIGHT be ok and safe-ish.

Any established cryers able to help??! Dare I ask, how was it for you??

starfish

SF & DF,

quote:

why can I feel so strongly for others distress but not my own? Is that what you meant KS?

That is exactly what I meant! My T continually asks me - "What would you say to a little girl who came up to you and told you she was being hurt?" Well, of course I would do all that I could to let her know that it wasn't her fault and those things should never happen - but when it comes to myself - what a joke - I deserved everything that I ever got (I know in my heart that is not true)!

As for crying... I am the queen of tears! I wish I could tell you the secret... But, I do not know what that is - I am a crier and always have been. I have spent my life in tears and no one gave a damn! I too heard "I'll give you something to cry about" well that didn't stop me at all, that just made me cry harder. I hate to cry alone - that scares the life out of me! When I cry I just want someone to hold me close and make my world all better! I have cried with my T and she is wonderful - I wish I could carry her with me in my pocket and pull her out when I need her!

KS

Hey guys... thought I'd pipe in for a sec and let you know about an old(ish) thread about my issues with crying in therapy... it was called 'Crying during sessions'. I got some pretty good responses and thought you all might find it helpful.

-CT

quote:

That always puts me in a fix - why can I feel so strongly for others distress but not my own?

I just wanted to throw out a few thoughts on why this happens because I know it's something I struggled with for a long time, still can occasionally to be honest. I think the heart of the problem is that on some level we really believe ourselves both to be responsible for what happened, and to be so worthless that how could we get upset about ANYTHING that happened to us?

We are driven to feel responsible for what happened out of an attempt to gain some sense of control over the situation. I discussed that in this post: Really, really mad but I'm including the part I'm referring to below (btw, this is a really good thread if you struggle with the whole "oh I'm making too big a deal of this, it wasn't trauma thing." Reading this thread will show you just how much of hot button that topic is for me. )

quote:

When there is ongoing trauma as children, the single strongest characteristic is our complete powerlessness to stop it. Powerlessness is a helpless feeling and can lead to despair because it brings you face to face with the fact that you can't do anything but endure. And realizing that could put you over the edge. So do you know what most traumatized kids do? They make it somehow about the person they are being responsible or causing it, because then, maybe, just maybe, they could control it. If you could just figure out what you were doing wrong, then it would stop. The problem is, we grow up, it stops, but we still believe we did something. I believed for years (decades, I'm old!) that I was intriniscally evil and repulsive, that I deserved the abuse from my father and as a matter of fact that my wanting affection and closeness and to be held presented a horrible temptation to my father and MADE him abuse me. Those are lies straight from the pit of hell. But they gave me hope that I could stop it, with the added benefit on preserving a "good" father. Can you see how it would work? That maybe your determination to make this somehow about a lack in you, of strength, of courage, of perserverence, of fortitude might be an attempt to retain control in what was an uncontrollable and as a matter of fact, an out of control, situation?

So if we're to blame then how can we feel bad about what happened?

Add to that the fact that when your needs are neglected, or you are used to meet another person's needs, what you hear on a very deep level is that you are worthless and you don't matter. You believe it. So when something good happens, you reject it because it doesn't fit with what you "know" to be the "truth." But when something bad happens, that fits your understanding so you can take in. So the sense of worthlessness runs very deep. When was the last time you saw someone get upset because someone kicked a trashcan? That was my image for so long of my father. That I was a human trashcan in which he dumped his rage, pain and shame. OK, so someone dumped trash in a trash can, what's the big deal?

Guess what, dear Reader? Right now I would bet a quite tidy sum of money that you are thinking "but you're not a trashcan, you didn't deserve that, it was horrible." And do you know why you're thinking that? Because you do NOT have deep rooted unconscious beliefs about my worthlessness or my responsibility. Without those emotions to cloud your perceptions, it's clear that I didn't cause the abuse; that no way in the world would a four year old EVER deserve to be treated that way.

I remember once discussing with my T about how responsible I felt for causing the abuse and I looked at him and said "the funny thing is that if someone else were sitting with us right now and saying exactly what I'm saying, I would see so clearly they were wrong, that they weren't responsible." and my T asked me "what's the difference?" And I answered that "my feelings are screaming so loudly at me that I am." He was so happy with that answer he practically handed me a lollipop!

OK, here's my favorite trick for understanding how wrong and/or bad what happened to you was (it was alluded to earlier in the thread): Picture a child the age you are or imagine that you are hearing about what happened to someone else, another poster on the forum and see how you feel. The reaction you have then is so much closer to the truth because it's not clouded by all the distortions and lies you learned WHILE you were being abused.

AG

Hi BB

Of course it is all right to just read and not reply, you seem to need time to gather your thoughts and feelings and that seems really sensible. Feeling overwhelmed is not pleasant so you must go with what your body tells you to in order to manage as you know best.

There is perhaps no rush (sometimes I am so impatient and at other times don't want to see what's staring me in the face)to work out if these difficult other pains are connected to anything that happened or if perhaps they are not. They may have an innocent cause that can be medically or otherwise explained that you can't see in the midst of evrything else, or maybe you might never know . . or they might be as a result of something else that's not apparent right now that's too hard to acknowledge. Just know that there are people here who have experienced all of these causes I am sure and can help you.

I have embarrassing body pains, I mostly know why but it's taken many many years for me to even acknowledge it to myself and then to have to try and tell my T - aaaaaaghhh . She never pushes or presses - I know it has to come from me when I am ready, but when I do tell her and we 'talk' (few fumbled words and many long silences from me) it's always like a tiny bit of the huge weight has been lifted from me and a few things fall into place, however difficult to acknowledge.

I hope this hasn't made things worse. Please don't reply if just reading is easier. I wanted to respond to your thoughts as best I could.

Do take care ((((BB)))

starfish

Oh BB

I feel for where you are right now (((BB)))

Firstly, you have been amazingly brave to e-mail your T with those questions. I think it was a really sensible move on your part and I am glad that he thought it was great. Interesting that he has asked you about the last session - wonder if he realised all was not well on reflection? I am glad too that you were able to say about how the yawning had left you feeling. I don't think it's the yawning I would find so difficult, my T hasn't as far as I can remember but if she were to I might assume that she'd been up too late or something BUT I do know I would have an apology from her if she ever thought she gave the impression of not being attentive, as she always is - very. So I can really see how that made you feel.

I hope the reply doesn't take to long - the waiting is harder than the posting in some ways. Then I guess you must decide on the trust issue and that's what's really hard. That has to be concrete before any work can be done. It took me years to fully trust my T - not because of anything on her part at all,but because I had to test and test and test her out to truly be sure of her, before I could trust her with my life. And now I know I can, but it has taken a very long time.

I am so sorry you're feeling bad about yourself. Remember that you have been strong before and functioned well before and you will again, but right now your brain's got a lot of sorting out to do that makes you feel like you're not coping. Look after yourself (and those little chicks ) and be gentle with yourself. I do hope his reply helps you decide what's best for you - and that it comes quickly.

starfish

Hey there Blackbird

I too wish there were some kind of litmus test of a T’s caring, a kind of formal checklist of things they have to complete in order to be deemed trustworthy.

Having said that I’m the kind of client who if I had Mother Teresa sitting opposite me I’d still be checking her out for trustworthiness. Knowing that about me, I tend to make myself give the T the benefit of the doubt (at least for a while!) and just assume he is caring and trustworthy, until proven otherwise. Doesn’t mean I do trust him, just that I’m more willing to take the odd risk on the assumption that he can be trusted. And if he says or does something that throws me (which is OFTEN) I pull him up on it. To me that’s the best criteria of trust so far, that each time I’ve had a go at him about saying/not saying something that has thrown me, he’s taken it really well. Which tells me so far anyway, that he can cock up and that that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s going to damage me. But I have to say it’s early days yet - never fear there is great potential for future major trust issues to arise.

I guess it’s a day by day thing. It sounds as if you are really disheartened by what’s been happening with your P. If I could push advice, I’d suggest that you not let that yawning incident go, it’s pretty pivotal in the whole trust and caring issue - I’d suggest talking again, and again about it until you are satisfied one way or the other that he is actually listening to and really hearing you. It’s about more than just his yawning, it’s more or less the present state of your relationship with him right there in miniature.

Sorry I’ve gone into lecture mode. I will get off my box now and go make some dinner.