I know what it feels like to wonder about whether or not your T really truly cares. I know that is a painful place.

After reading your letter I had the impression that you're pretty frustrated and angry at your T. I wonder if you talked to her directly about your anger if that would help. I hear that you are wanting more of a reaction from her. More attentiveness. I can understand that. It may just be her style that she is more distant. I have seen quite a few Ts in my quest for good ones. I have noticed big differences in their styles. Some will hug you and some will not. I had one T who stared at me the entire first session I saw her. Said hardly two words. She was weird. Tried seeing her for a couple of weeks and then realized that our styles clashed. The biggest reason I didn't stick with her was her rather stand offish manner.

But you sound like you are attached to this T. So to simply say to find another would not be very comforting I am sure.

Perhaps you could ask her what her lack of reaction is about. Or maybe you already have. BUt that would be a start.

It's good that you are connecting some of this with your past. To see the patterns of hurt etc. Although it's odd for me to say that because I really resist looking at those in myself.

I hope that what I said was okay. I know this is sensitive territory.

CT, I know what it feels like to wonder what your T really thinks of you. I spent my last session discussing exactly that. I also have a T who is not very demonstrative. He has told me that I am not okay because he says so I am okay because I know it.

My rock and hard place stuck feeling comes from the fact that if T was more feeling and demonstrative then I wouldn't believe it was real. I often think that people who are understanding and attentive just don't know me well enough to judge me and I write off their support as conditional (when I say or do the next thing then they will feel differently).

It makes my T relationship very difficult and I'm not sure a different T with a different style would help.

Good luck with this letter. I think whenever you can tell T how you feel, you open the door to some understanding.

It never ceases to amaze me how one of us is feeling strongly about something and lo and behold another one signs into forum and someone else has already posted what you were feeling. I can't help but wonder about the idiosynchronicty of it all or is it suggestablity? Are we feeding off of one another so much that we begin to adopt similar cycle s and patterns of emotions? It really makes me curious.

Anyway, CT, I don't know what to say other than I truly feel your pain rightnow. I just got off a heated phone call with my T who expressed that she is feeling frustrated with me right now because as she put it "There is nothing she can seem to do to prove that she cares for me and she finds that frutrating when she spends so much time trying to help me see that she does." So after sobbbing profusely after haging up I started wondering, maybe this is as far as she can take me. Maybe I need another T to help me from here. Then I hear her words, "No matter what I say or do you are always looking for me to reject you." So I suppose I shouldn't believe I'd feel any different with another T.

And HB, what you said is very interesting. There is only so much we can gain from therapy. So is this the end of the line for me? I mean what sort of hellish place have I been dropped into? Is something finally going to just click and I recognize ok, this is what I need and it does not revolve around my T anymore. It now revolves around me and I pick myself up and give her one last hug and say "Thank you for all you've done. I'll take it from here." And just in case I sound infuriated, I am not. At least not with you or anything you or anybody else said. My frustration comes from the feelings that nothing is ever good enough. I have been waiting for this relationship to fulfill a certain connection in the brain that would be a much less painful realization that I am done with therapy. I suspected all along that when i am done with therapy it would be a good feeling. A sense of accomplishment and a new found meaning and comfortable shift in my relationship withmy T. Not that it wouldn't be bitter sweet, but that it wouldn't still hurt this damn much!

I am sorry if I hijacked you post CT. But again I am amazed at the synchronicty of it all. And I am not in a good place at all right now to offer any advice, but I would like to offer my heart of support. Then I wish I could take a couple xanax and go to bed and hope for a better day tomorrow. Because today sucks the big one!

Incognito I just wanted to tell you that I replied a nice long reply to your other post last night and when I went to hit send I somewhow deleted or reset the message box and lost it all. I was so frutstraed because it meant a lot for me to reply to you and I just couldn't bring myslef to try again. SO all I can say right now is I'm sorry. ANd (((hug)))
JM

JM, thank for letting me know. I was looking for your reply. I am also struck with the synchronicity of these threads. I am sorry that you are in such pain. I think that HB's reply to my thread is very interesting because while it acknowledges that our T can be what we need perhaps they can show how to be what we need for ourselves. At least that was my take on it and I am nowhere near knowing how that would look but it did give me some hope.

Awww (((JM))) (((incognito)))

All you guys! I don't think it's coincidence that so many of us are struggling with our relationships with our Ts. I think it is the way of therapy for many people. It's the way it unravels. I am still trying to figure out how it helps me and or hinders me.

I had a huge wake up call when my T of 16 years ended her practice. She told me it was hard to leave me. She told me that she thinks of me every day. She told me that she loves me and cares about me. But bottom line she is GONE. No contact. NOTHING. Now I see this new T and she tells me she cares. She tells me that she thinks of me etc. And guess what? I refuse to swallow it hook line and sinker this time. I know for a fact that this relationship no matter how close I feel to her is very limitted.

Here's an email I just sent my T today.

"Hello (new T),

I guess since I realize that I can not replace what I lost in childhood I feel sort of dead. I felt even more depressed. I mean severely so. I guess that is lingering.

I do not know how to get the energy for life back. You said I could borrow your hope for me. Thank you but I have no idea how that would work. Plus I learned from (my old T) that I am just your client. In the long run I won't know you. You won't be there next to me while I struggle to survive in this world. I know this intimately because of my relationship with (my old T). I learned that no matter how close I feel to you there will always be severe limitations and that it is in my best interest not to get too invested in the emotional side of our relationship. While I appreciate your gestures to support me I am all too aware that some day soon you and I will not even be talking or thinking of one another. I know this for a fact.

I feel like crap. I feel like I can not even get a enough traction under me to get enough of a grip to help myself. It started when I learned that my past was worse than I thought initially. Then when (my old T) told me that our relationship was over, just like that, it became by far worse. I am out of my body. I am not present in my own life. That's the best I can describe it. In a removed way I am very concerned about myself and how I am going to start to care again.

Thanks for taking the time to read this."

The pain in everybody posts here is palpable. Some of it seems unavoidable and some of it seems unnecessary but all of it is real but hopefully not insurmountable. I wish I could hand out hope to each of us and soothing and peace. I wish that our relationships with our T's could be more of what we want and have to be just what we really need. I have been under a great big mound of grief and sometimes depression for the last few weeks trying to accept the discrepancy between what I want from T and what I will get, between what I think I need from her and what I might really need. I've been angry and in despair because of the unfairness that I have to work so hard and invest so much in an unequally reciprocating temporary relationship. Being told that in order to heal the atrocities of my past that have made me this miserable person I am today, I have to reveal all of myself even the most hidden tender parts, examine them and rework it all with someone whose loyalty and concern I have to take mostly on faith (and pay for) seems to be a really asinine way to do things. Who came up with this system?!?!?

However, this week I finally had a chance to quiet down the craziness in my head and I heard that little voice crying in the dark. That little girl who is too young to have experienced the pain of betrayal or abandonment consciously yet and still has hope and faith that things can get better and that T can and will help. In my session Monday night, I was in a very dark, sad, lonely place but towards the very end I felt a very strong presence of this little girl (I call her "Little sister") who didn't know what to say but had to reach out. Since T and I sit together on the couch, Little Sister reached out and touched T's arm and just simply said how soft her sweater was. I don't think T knew what was going on and since time was up I was sad I couldn't tell her. I cried a lot because I was mad about the time limit thing being so impersonal, limiting and smacking of rejection.

Fortunately, Little Sister didn't recede into the background like usual and I felt very much like my younger self for most of the week. Little Sister is so much more trusting of people and is not afraid to like them or love them or even let them know that. She is much more optimistic and hopeful about things and tries hard to see the benefits of things even sad or frustrating things. When I saw T again on Friday I told her all about Little Sister and even some other things that had been going on that last week I swore I'd never fess up to. T has told me before that Little Sister holds the key to my healing. So I decided to try to trust Little Sister's instincts and I've had a much better week for it. I guess I am asking myself "What would Little Sister do?" And since she lives in the moment and isn't so afraid to ask for things this has helped stifle a lot of fears for what the future holds.... for now.

River,
I am glad you were able to get in touch with "Little Sister" that way. Iknow that is where you (WE) need to go. It is very touching when that little girl comes out because as you aptly describe she is far more accepting and willing than we are.

That is where I have been these last few months giving complete exposure to my little girl self and other selves, and in that I was so hoping for more good and positive feelings to come between me and my T, but it seems so remote and my T feels more aloof I am sure in its affect and not in her reality at all. But it hurts very deep. It i apinful and tormenting to which she is sort of forced to stand on the sideline to some degree and I can't help but to resent that. My mommy shold have come to me to soothe me when i was a baby. My T should come to me to soothe me now.

It is habitual to want to intellectualise this and I should resist, becaue who really gives a crap about the intellectualism of it all anyway. It doesn't matter. By becoming "little" again there seems to be a sense of danger and desire to run from it.

Oh I don't even know what I just typed and I don't even care. I may as well stop here before I find myslef somplace I can't explain. Its a mess, a real mess. Sorry that this is all resonating around the forum so much and that such wonderful people are hurting like this.

JM

Yes - your mother should have soothed you. You shouldn't have had to do it yourself. It sucks big time now that no one else can really do it for you - even if they tried. That is the hard, shitty truth of it. I have been bashing my head against this truth myself and the pain is unbearable. It is heartbreaking that our T's can't ultimately do what we want them to so desperately to do. And in trying to help us as much as they can without hurting us they walk a tricky thin path strewn with the cracks and boulders of miscommunication, tugging emotions, and pure humaness - on both sides. Two days ago I wouldn't have been this understanding or generous considering the pain I felt but Little Sister has an amazing ability to take things on faith, like that the way things work in therapy is really probably the best system we can have right now with what we know.

I am so sorry you are in so much pain. Wouldn't it be fun to let our "little girls" just go out and play while the old tired "older selves" take a nice peaceful nap? It is raining here so let's go jump in the puddles!

I've been thinking about posting about my last session all week but just couldn't seem to get to it and now I know why.

I'm sorry, so sorry, for the incredible pain everyone is in. I really do understand the agony and just how endless it feels, but I want to tell you that there is hope, and healing and you are closer than you know.

I don't want to seem insensitive to what everyone is dealing with, or especially to make things worse, so I write what I do in the hope that it will help. And if you need to use the HTML slapper on me I'll completely understand.

I posted about emailing my T and when I called him having him tell me that he couldn't remember if he had read it. I was already struggling with so much anger about the boundaries. I am trying to come to grips with all the pain of what I didn't get from my mother and being told I can only come an hour a week and not even that the following week, that I have to leave at the end of an hour no matter how I'm feeling and i can't be held or treated affectionately invoked all those feelings of never having enough, of having to cope on my own. That once again I was being failed by the very person I was supposed to be able to depend on.

I was so angry with my T about the email I could barely talk to him but when I got off the phone, the feeling came sweeping in that I didn't matter. That I hadn't gotten what I needed from my mother because something was missing from me, that I was just inherently incapable of having a real connection and being loved by another human being. That's when I called my T back. He assured me that our relationship is real (which I believe it is, its just that it only occurs within the boundaries) and was extremely strong about explaining that something was missing but it wasn't missing from me but from what I was given. But he also told me that he understood my anger. That therapy wasn't enough and I had every right to feel angry about that. Thinking about it later, I thought "what the #$%^? if it's not enough, what the hell am I going through this for?"

I went to see him on Tuesday and was struggling to express how I was feeling and he told me to just start with our last appointment and describe what happened. As I related what happened I was able to talk about how I was feeling and realized that I had been engaged in a struggle that felt like giving birth. The reason our Ts won't tell us what we want to hear, won't promise to give us the love we rightfully long for is because they can't. It won't fit within the bounds of therapy and even if it did it wouldn't be enough to satisfy those needs that were never met.

The boundaries aren't really painful because we cannot get what we need, they're painful because they evoke what it felt like to not get what we need. Once I came back from the edge of despair of believing that my relationship with my T wasn't real and I wasn't capable of a real relationship, I was still left with the fact that boundaries are real. I am a client (although not "just") of my T. And that although I have what I believe is a very deep and significant relationship, he does not offer to me anything different from what he would offer anyone who came through his door. Which brings me face to face with the fact that no matter how much I want it or feel like I need it, I will get NOTHING beyond those boundaries. I have to give up the hope of it. But that hope is an integral part of my lifelong relentless hope that if I just searched long enough and hard enough I would finally find what was missing as a child.

And as I told my T, to give up the hope of relationship beyond therapy with him where there would be restrictions on what he could be to me, is to give up the hope of finally fixing what happened with my parents. But the very difficult and almost intolerable reality is that I can't. I can't fix it. And part of what makes my life so difficult is that until I give up on finding it, I spend so much time and energy, including getting fixated in destructive relationship patterns trying to accomplish it.

But the reason it is so hard to let go of hope is that the only thing left, and the place I came to on Tuesday, was a horrible grief. I finally went there, and let myself feel it. I think it was one of the, if not the, most painful things I've ever done (later in the session my T told me it waa probably the hardest thing I would ever have to face.) I broke down and sobbed with what felt like a broken heart for a while.

But this was the difference and why our therapists are important and why we put ourselves through this hell. Instead of being utterly alone in the midst of that terrible grief as I was in the past, my T came with me every step of the way. He witnessed my grief, he affirmed how terrible it was but he also told me that there was another side, that I could live through it. In the middle of it, when I could barely breathe, with my eyes closed, I heard him say in a tear-choked voice, that he was so sorry that I had to experience this pain. And I knew that I wasn't alone anymore.

Therapy isn't enough to go back and provide me with what I didn't have. But it is enough to provide me a place to see myself clearly, to feel my grief, to not be alone, to be understood. To teach me to let go of the relentless hope and realize that in spite of it all I have what I need to go forward.

There is nothing fair about what happened to all of us. And it is a gross injustice that we must work so hard to heal problems not of our making. But the only choice we have is to do the work, endure the pain and heal, or to live a life only half alive, to only endure our existance. We are all better than that and deserve so much more.

I know you, probably better in some ways than many of the people in your "real" life, and I see such brave, incredible, wise, and loving people who deserve to know their own worth and to walk in freedom. I know it feels hopeless, I know it feels like the pain could kill you. I know you're angry and want someone to pay for what happened to you. And you have every right to feel all those things. Just don't give up. Do not think that the end point is to be in pain and confusion and want. That is not the end. It will be ok in the end. If it's not ok, it's not the end. So this isn't the end.

AG

Thanks, AG, for posting all of your experience. And no need for the HTML slapper Your T was wonderful and it's obvious that the care is there for you. I'm glad you found that you were not alone during your journey to the most painful place. And the outcome gives all of us hope that we can journey there and back in one piece when our time comes.

It is just so hard to exist with that empty place inside. The place that was never filled with what we should have had as children and can't have even now with our Ts. I think we just have to find the way to grieve it and then leave it and go on to find what can now make us happy and fulfilled. Now just because I say we should do that does not mean I have any @##@%$%*$%$#@ idea how to do that or if it's even really possible. It's just that sitting with the pain of loss becomes intolerable sometimes. That endless ache that cannot be filled even though we all try. The closest I come to dulling that ache or being able to ignore it is when I'm sitting with my T and quietly talking about what hurts and why and hearing him reassure me that it will be okay.

I appreciate all that you have told us because it does give us hope.

TN

Hey Everybody. Thanks for all of your responses and support. Regardless of how empty I feel, it is at least nice to know that other people out there know what this feels like (not that I would wish it on anyone). It's so easy to think that we are crazy, dillusional and overreacting when we are out there in the real world.

I've been rereading some of the old things that I have written to my T, in search of a time when I had more understanding, I guess. I ran across a few things that I thought you all might be interested in reading... or maybe not. Just thought I'd post 'em, maybe so you all won't feel alone, maybe to help give you some words to an ache you can't name, or maybe just to make myself feel better. Here goes:


"I actually heard myself say, “I feel like someone has died” and that stopped me in my tracks. I mean, the obvious answer is that my mother died; however, that notion did not quell the feeling of gloom and grief inside of me. No, someone else died. Intuitively, I knew it was a more recent, intimate friend who has never before left me. Puzzled due to lack of answers, I began to close down my computer and head for bed. I sat quietly for a moment, though, gathering the strength to get up, and that is when I heard it.

Hope.

It was no louder than a whisper, but I heard it. It took me a moment to realize what it was, but then it clicked.

Hope died, and it is her loss that I am mourning.

Not all hope is gone; it was a very specific hope who lost her life that night. Unfortunately, it just so happened to be my favorite hope; the comfortable, reliable hope that I will one day find someone who will be able to fill in all of the gaps my mother missed.

In truth, she has been dying for a while now (hope, that is). Cause of death appears to be suffocation from the relentless chokehold I have had on her for the past few years. I didn’t even know I was squeezing, but all of the sudden, she was gone. Now, all that’s left in my hands is the pain of reality. It’s hollow, empty, gut-wrenching and nauseating. It’s grief.

I no longer look forward to the day that I will finally find the missing piece to my maternal puzzle. I know that no amount of effort will yield me a functional, loving, beautiful mother. No amount of pleading or begging or wishing will change the fact that my mother sucked and that I didn’t get what I needed from her. No amount of good behavior, good grades, good deeds or manipulation will ever change the past. I can try to please, impress and flatter all of the attractive, sensitive and comforting older women in the world, but it will do me no good because I cannot transplant them back to my formative years and recreate my childhood with them. Nope, my childhood is over. There is no going back and replacing my inadequate mother.

That being said however, I still don’t know how to get rid of the rubble and debris that remains from my years of hoping I could one day convince someone to fill her position. There is this insatiable desire left over in me to be wanted, to be mentored, and to be loved. More than anything, though, I want to be held. I want to be comforted and held. I crave it. I long for it. I want it more than money, sex, relationships and food. I just want to be still and lay my head in a mother’s lap while she strokes my hair. I don’t even want to talk or anything. Is that really too much to ask? Apparently so.

So, if I have not stopped wanting all of these things, and I am still hurting, what does the death of hope mean? It just means that I no longer believe the lie that finding a replacement mother will make all this pain go away."


"Why does it feel like you are rejecting me when I know, in my head, that you aren’t? I know you aren’t, but I’m hurt and sad because something, somewhere inside of me tells me you are. And that part won’t shut up. It keeps talking, telling me that you would violate your boundaries if only I were worth it, that there is no sense in wishing I were part of your family because you wouldn’t have me, and that I was born to dysfunctional parents because it is what I deserved."

-CT

quote:

"Why does it feel like you are rejecting me when I know, in my head, that you aren’t? I know you aren’t, but I’m hurt and sad because something, somewhere inside of me tells me you are. And that part won’t shut up. It keeps talking, telling me that you would violate your boundaries if only I were worth it, that there is no sense in wishing I were part of your family because you wouldn’t have me, and that I was born to dysfunctional parents because it is what I deserved."

CT.. I could have written that but you already have.. and quite beautifully. You express what I so strongly feel about my life and about my T. My T is a male so it takes on a little different connotation but it's mostly a similar feeling. When he tells me he won't reject me or abandon me my ears hear it and my brain registers it but I can't feel it and believe it. I think it's because my mom also said positive things to me and then abused me too. So it became confusing to me and I learned not to believe what I heard. I still have a really hard time trusting my perceptions of any situation.

None of us, no one deserves to be born to a dysfunctional family but somehow we struggle with this. Our self-esteem has been beaten or choked out of us and we think we deserve all the bad things that happened to us and we can't possibly entertain the thought that we deserve all good things.

As for hope, I guess we can endure the loss of a lot of things in life but the loss of hope seems to be the hardest to deal with.

I'm sorry for your pain. Thank you for sharing what you did.

TN

I think everyone has said it most eloquently. I'm posting these links for your perusal...perhaps they will resonate.
These links describe the essence of the existential crisis....which is what I am seeing in this thread. I think it applies to all of us...and is why we are here. And why we keep seeking, and asking the hard questions. We are all experiencing "The Dark Night of the Soul."

"The main thing a seeker must do is hang in there! Neither ecstasy nor agony are as important as persisting."


http://www.themystic.org/print/threshold.htm

"The truth I fear...Is my only hope."


http://www.themystic.org/print/dark-
night.htm

"What must the caterpillar do? That it may one day fly?


......may we all find peace.

SD

CT,
You took the words right out of my mouth. I might just print that out and show my T because those may have very well ben my words. I hear it, I feel it, but I can't give it up and it feels like this is suffocating me and its winning. It hurts to breathe. I keep trying to pick up the shattered pieces of my soul but the fragemnts just keep heaping more and more. I'm lost and hopeless. If this is the reality we need to get to before the true healing begins I am somehow managing not to know how to do that either. If this is where it is supposed to go, how come our T's don't tell us?

HB, I hope you're right. I don;t feel that right now and am I supposed to undertsand that I should or that I will? Or am I going to suffer for nothing? Its unbearable. I AM DYING! I am experiencing my death and a bleeding void between me and my T.
JM

quote:

It reminds me of my dad- the way he used to just passively sit there and look at me when I would talk to him.

yep, that's me...

quote:

Then I think, we’re already almost a year into this…Shouldn’t I have figured it out by now? If we’re not even to that point yet, and there is SO much more s*** to work through, is this even worth continuing? But you and I both know that “not continuing” is not an option.

and that's me...

quote:

I feel like I am my own rock and my own hard place, and I am somehow still managing to be stuck in between them

and that's me, too.

You are so not alone. I've told my T that sometimes, because I still feel like s$&t much of the time after 9 months of seeing him three times a f*%#ing week, that I'm not "getting it" and someting is not sinking in. I've also told him that I maybe I'm too dumb for therapy, and that whatever is blocking me from this information sinking and having "ah ha" moments is just too immovable and I'll feel like this for the rest of my life.

So yeah, I feel your frustration. Writing it down doesn't make it go away, but it's still a good thing to do.

Hang in there.
Russ

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:
Then I hear her words, "No matter what I say or do you are always looking for me to reject you." So I suppose I shouldn't believe I'd feel any different with another T.

JM, this reminds me of the time (or one of the many times) I told my T that I wish to god that I had different parents. He said, "there's a good chance that having different parents would just be the same wine in a different bottle."

Also, my T has been trying very hard to get me to realize that if I assert myself and/or get angry with him, he actually *won't* abandon or punish me. I can't seem to get this through my head, despite the mountain of evidence that this guy will be here for me. I then said to him, "well, I guess I just have to have the courage to change my behavior, stand up for myself and tell you exactly what I feel when you piss me off."

He was like, "bingo." For me, it's about taking some risks and changing how I behave toward the most important people in my life, which means being clear, assertive and emotionally honest with them. No one can do this for me. I have to do it.

I think the act of trusting is terrifying...more terrifying than we even realize. Sounds like that's part of what you're struggling with. And why would you trust anyone after your parents dropped the ball so horribly? Still, learning to trust your T does require immense courage, and it can only come from us.

quote:

Originally posted by Hummingbird:
We no longer have to say yes to whatever crappy hand we are dealt. We have a choice and we remember our value. HB

This is awesome.

Russ

quote:

"well, I guess I just have to have the courage to change my behavior, stand up for myself and tell you exactly what I feel when you piss me off."

He was like, "bingo." For me, it's about taking some risks and changing how I behave toward the most important people in my life, which means being clear, assertive and emotionally honest with them. No one can do this for me. I have to do it.

I think the act of trusting is terrifying...more terrifying than we even realize. Sounds like that's part of what you're struggling with. And why would you trust anyone after your parents dropped the ball so horribly? Still, learning to trust your T does require immense courage, and it can only come from us.

Thanks Russ, I appreciate your sharing that. I know you are right and to add to my dilemma my T is reacting to emotionally with me. Or I should say because she is so animated and passionate in her approach it activates me. It feels like she is arguing and debating with me even though she really isn't. I had to ask her to speak more calmly to me last session and when I spoke to her on the phone she admitted she was frustrated and I had to ask her to at least speak calmly to me. She tried, but her frustration showed through. So I feel emotionally breeched and retraumatized through all of this.

I hope I am not exasperating anybody. I just can't seem to get on the other side of this. I am also having several and severe flashbacks and somatic memories of CSA. And as much as I want to call my T for reassurance I am afraid to. I am afraid it will hurt more and THAT pissess me off royally!

But al the posts are reassuring that I am not alone and HB and AG you are giving me at least a trickle of hope when I otherwise would feel none.
JM

*slink slink*

Your T was frustrated with you? And sounded like it? That would really get to me. I wouldn't like it at all.

JM,

I am so, so sorry you are suffering so much right now. I did not experience CSA, so it's hard for me to imagine what you are going through with the flashbacks and the transference and trust issues with your T. Obviously, I hope you are able to eventually sort that out.

Last friday, my T visually diagramed for me how he sees my issues lined up and related, and at the bottom/core of it all, even before the connection fantasy involving my father, is that I didn't get what I needed from my mother, emotionally. She was distant and reserved with her affection, and the fact is that I needed a mother who wasn't these things. I accept with this idea, but what scares me is that I haven't experienced all the awful, childlike longings that you and other people here on the board have experienced (wanting to be held, etc), and I'm even more afraid of having to go through it all before I get "better."

I guess a part of me doesn't want to believe this. Then I looked through the three photo albums that my parents recently mailed to me. I counted 250 photos, and there are just a couple of me and my mom, and it's when I'm an infant. There are no photos of us together otherwise, so I guess I better get used to the idea.

It sounds like your T cares for you immensely. Otherwise, I don't think she'd get so emotional and animated with you. I know it must be troubling to see her get upset like that, but I wonder if it's her authentic concern for you that is coming through.

Russ

Russ- I am sorry we are scaring you here. But I don't think that every one has to experience transference or attachment this way. Attachment issues are a trauma in of themselves, but when you mix that with other childhood traumas (life threatening, violent stuations, CSA and whatever...) I think it makes it more complex. I think while you are dealing with just as much heavy emotional baggage as any of us, it is not compounded by the other stuff. Not that I should assume you don't have "other stuff"...but as far as I know you haven't mentioned it. But what you have experienced is no doubt traumatic for a child and reliving the intense emotional pain of abandonment alone as an adult can be very tormenting. So you may not have to go through this crap at least not to this degree and I certainly hope that you don't.

I have spent my time looking back at family photos too and I was surprised at how few existed of me and either of my parents. The one that strikes me the hardest is where my mom is bottle feeding me and holding me away from her body. Ok, I know the woman didn't like her picture taken, but so few pictures and this one really tells the story of a worn out, unavailable mom. Oh well. We all have our stories, I am sure. And I get the sense that with the way your father acted that it comes as a surprise for you to realize that your mother was emotinally distant too. The women we never expected would or could be. It was a shock to me too.

You sound like you have a great T too Russ. I like how he spends the time with you drawing the diagram to help you understand how your issues line up. He is spending time with you that no one took while you were growing up and I think that is an awesome touch.

And yes, I know my T loves and cares for me very deeply. (Yes I'm back) I beleive that is why she gets frustrated because she cares so much. She is very animated and while that can be very draining to me sometimes, I know it is her passion shining through. So I agree with you Russ, it is her authentic concern for me coming out. And she isn't frustrated AT ME, but FOR ME. I am sure that with my emotions riding so high I may have made it sound like she was frustrated with me. No, not at all. It FELT like she was, but I sincerely knew and know better than that. That is the child coming out in me who felt the frustration of her parents as being very personal.

So Wynne, while it did activate me and hurt me, I never meant to portray her as being frustrated with ME. Her approach has been hard for me to handle lately, but I think I will live through it. We typically work quite well together and I usually get a kick out of her. She's a very passionate person. It may take this kind of passion and drive to make me GET that I am lovable and cared for. I'm a hard learner that way.

HB, I want to address you again and say thank you for your positve perspective on this, AG, Russ, and all of you actually. It helps so much to have someplace to go with this tremndous burden and not feel so alone.
JM

JM,

Glad to hear that you're "back." . I have to say, for someone in your kind of pain, dealing with what you're dealing with, you certainly are able to write and think very clearly. That's a testament to your mind's strength right there.

quote:

(photos) tells the story of a worn out, unavailable mom.

Ditto. As far as being worn out, I guess living with a cranky, joyless man with no emotions who leaves you with three little girls and moves back in with his parents across town, then moves back in with you FOUR years later and then you have another kid (me) might wear you out a bit. No wonder my mom turned to religion and told me that "you have to make your own happiness in life."

quote:

And I get the sense that with the way your father acted that it comes as a surprise for you to realize that your mother was emotinally distant too. The women we never expected would or could be. It was a shock to me too.

This site needs an emoticon of a nail being hit on the head. This is dead on. What's so confusing is that my mom would be distant in her own weird way, then kiss me on the cheek, which I always hated. I think I was confused and angry about her from a really early age.

Also, your idea that your T is frustrated for you and not with you is really perceptive. I could see someone getting really confused about this, but you're not.

Russ

quote:

More than anything, though, I want to be held. I want to be comforted and held. I crave it. I long for it. I want it more than money, sex, relationships and food. I just want to be still and lay my head in a mother’s lap while she strokes my hair. I don’t even want to talk or anything. Is that really too much to ask? Apparently so.

Wow CT

You have just expressed so well, what is in my heart. It astounds me that these feelings are not just mine. That others feel the same way, and I'm not so crazy, or unique, or warped. The question I have though is that now that I intellectually understand that the reason for this feeling is because I did not get the nurturing I needed as a child, how do I emotionally deal with it? I know that my T can't give me what I painfully yearn for, so how do I stop yearning for it? What do I do to fill this void and move on? How do I stop feeling sorry for myself and realize that this is just the way it is and there is no going back to change it? So many questions. Guess I need to bring this up to my T. Even though I have told her how I feel about her, it is still hard to describe some of my deepest feelings for her. This therapy stuff is just way too complicated!

Russ

I understand your disappointment and pain of not seeing many pictures of your mom with you. Just another perspective - my kids may say the same thing when they look back on old pictures. But, the reason isn't because I didn't want to be close to them, or didn't value them. It is because I was disgusted with myself because of my weight and the thought that I was ugly.....(fill in the blanks). I always took the pictures so I didn't have to be in them. Now that I have lost weight and feel a little better about that part of me, I'm ok with being in the pictures. This may not have anything to do with your situation, so I hope I'm not offending you. Just my situation.

PL

JM

I'm so happy to see your happy, shiny face and all your amazing advice and knowledge back again. The cycles that we all go through on this forum are really interesting. Lucky for us that we are each at a different place in our cycles. That way, there is always someone in a good place to help out those who are in the downward spiral place.

PL

quote:

Russ

I understand your disappointment and pain of not seeing many pictures of your mom with you. Just another perspective - my kids may say the same thing when they look back on old pictures. But, the reason isn't because I didn't want to be close to them, or didn't value them. It is because I was disgusted with myself because of my weight and the thought that I was ugly.....(fill in the blanks). I always took the pictures so I didn't have to be in them. Now that I have lost weight and feel a little better about that part of me, I'm ok with being in the pictures. This may not have anything to do with your situation, so I hope I'm not offending you. Just my situation.

PL

PL,

No worries. It's impossible to say exactly why there's not a lot of photos with me and my mom. I'm sure there's a few reasons. I do know that my parents were not big on smiling a whole lot. The best you see is maybe a half-smile, and I swear my father looks like the joy was sucked out of him by aliens.

Russ

JM, I'm glad you are back. LOL. thank you for sharing your thoughts while you are in different stages.

This thread has been so amazing because I realize that I am not the only one who had emotionally unavailable parents who really had no acceptance for me as a person instead they wanted me to be their child. It is probably not surprising that I have so much trouble interpreting what my T says. Also, it makes me feel a lot of relief to know others struggle with the T relationship and it can work out.

quote:

Originally posted by incognito:

This thread has been so amazing because I realize that I am not the only one who had emotionally unavailable parents who really had no acceptance for me as a person instead they wanted me to be their child.

this is a really interesting statement. i think it points to the lack of respect a lot of our parents had for us. after all, we were "just" children. our opinions and voices don't really count.

quote:

It is probably not surprising that I have so much trouble interpreting what my T says.

Are you my twin?

quote:

The question I have though is that now that I intellectually understand that the reason for this feeling is because I did not get the nurturing I needed as a child, how do I emotionally deal with it? I know that my T can't give me what I painfully yearn for, so how do I stop yearning for it? What do I do to fill this void and move on? How do I stop feeling sorry for myself and realize that this is just the way it is and there is no going back to change it? So many questions

Hey PL, I know the amount of questions regarding this subject can be overwhelming in and of themselves. I suggest writing them all down if you can because they are each important. The questions you're asking are the ones that I have asked and am still asking. I will warn you though, because I didn't like the answers very much... not at all actually, and I don't know some of the others yet. However, here is my take on things-

The goal, in the end, is to be able to find comfort and acceptance and understanding and safety within ourselves. A lot of us were stunted developmentally, and never got to the point where we were able to internalize our mothers and carry them with us in our heads (emotional object constancy). Since we did not learn this critical skill, we have most-likely grown up with little/no self soothing ability. Therefore, as I am experiencing it, the keys to emotionally dealing with what we yearn for are:
1) realizing what we missed out on
2) feeling all the feelings we couldn't express when we were children about our deprivation/neglect/(insert euphemism for F***** Up parenting here)
3) grieving the loss of what we deserved but didn't get
4) learning to internalize some of our T's empathy for us in order to a) replace the screwed up messages from our parents and b) to be able to semi-self soothe
5) merge our internal voices with the internalized T voice in order to rely on ourselves for comfort, self-soothing, self-worth, etc.

Sounds like a piece of cake, right?

I wanted to add further, that I am not sure the yearning itself ever goes away. I have heard/read that it lessens significantly, but I'm not sure it ever really leaves us. I'll let you know when I'm done grieving...

Lastly, I wanted to share a bit from "In Session" that I think might resonate with a few of you out there... at least it did for me.

Pg. 205- "It is an infants mother who facilitates and regulates shifts in the baby's internal states. The mother feeds the baby and transforms hunger to satiety, puts the baby to bed and turns fatigue to rest, picks the baby up and turns fear and panic at separation to succor and security. She also shares the infant's states, naming them, cirsumscribing them, and giving them a reality outside the self. She let's the child know that human beings are sad together, hungry together, sleepy together, and survive. Naming those states and not being alone with them reduces their disorganizing power.

It is mother who teaches us that there is a self that is the same regardless of the strong states it undergoes. A sick self is still the same self; a hungry self is still the same self; a sleepy self is still the same self. Infant research suggests that this continuity of experience, of selfhood, appears to be something that only fully develops through a consistent relationship with another person. While infants are likely to begin with an innate sense of self, intense feelings and traumatic experiences can shake this nascent self's security."

Pg. 195- "The caregiver who is attuned and responsive to these shifts in states [these= similar to what was said above] but does not seem perturbed by them makes them more tolerable for the infant... A therapist may attempt to regulate the client's emotional states by naming them, by helping circumscribe them, by showing that they can begin and end without permanently altering either client, therapist or the relationship between them."

This, in my opinion, is why we HAVE to have a T to work through all of this. We need someone to teach us how to have a voice and realize that we are not insane for having basic feelings.

-CT

CT

I can see that I'm stuck at #2-3. The grieving is very hard to get through and it seems like there is no end to this dark tunnel. Add in all the other stressors that distract a person from working on the grieving, and it gets way too complicated.

I always thought that I would be considered weak if I were to go to therapy. After all, I grew up being the strong one. My T reminds me constantly, and I can see it too, that going to therapy is some of the hardest work that I have ever done. At this point in time, I just want someone (my T) to take it all away and make life peachy. I know that isn't the way it works, and even though I have many lulls, I can't give up. I know some day I will grab that golden ring and know I have arrived at the other side. It really gives me strength to see how hard everyone else is working to reach the same goal. Some days I am able to find a way to soothe myself, and other days I am not. But I know that each time I do, gets me closer to being able to do something I have avoided all my life.

I read "In Session" quite a while ago, but I think I need to re-read it. It will make more sense to me now that I have experienced many more emotions. When I read it, I was barely entering the transference stage, and had NO clue as to what was happening.

You are right about needing to have a T to guide us through all of this. It is so important to have a constant person validating our feelings and emotions that we (I) have always thought were so crazy.

PL

Glad you're reading that book "in Session" It's a great book. My T was interviewed for it. At the back of the book where the author gives thanks to the people who helped her with the book my T is mentioned!

For some odd reason I am proud of that. Or maybe I am proud of her. Not sure which.

quote:

For some odd reason I am proud of that. Or maybe I am proud of her. Not sure which.

Hi Jo...maybe you are proud FOR her.

Just a random thought...in the middle of the night.

SD

Jo, I can understand why you would be proud. I remember connecting with some T's in that book and admired the way they handled their clients' transference and the responsibilty, care, and concern they took for their clients well being. Maybe your T is one of them.

I loved "In Session" btw, it saved me when I was frought with so much anxiiety over my transference for my T. I read it cover to cover in less than 2 days!

Did you notice the thread on that?
New Book Discussion: "In Session-The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists”
JM

quote:

Originally posted by Hummingbird:
JM everytime you go deeply into the pain you come out the other side with such depth of understanding and wisdom that all of us hold our breath waiting to hear from you, to hear what you have to say. But i bet you can't see that either.

REALLY? I swear HB, if you keep this up my refrigerator and bathroom mirror are going to be filled with your inspirational thoughts for me. REALLY? It is not how I see myself and certainly while I am going through the pain I don't see me as having any strength or clarity whatsoever. I'm scratching my head, but I grinningly want to take your word for it.

But I must admit, I've learned a lot about myself on this forum because everyone here is so generous about sharing their own experiences, the good, the bad, and the ugly which provides much assurance and positive feedback that I am (dare I say it?) "normal." It is quite an encouragement for me to be myself; to be bold in my expressions, and to know that others will accept me and show that they even care is very touching, very healing indeed. This is one of the few places I have truly felt accepted for who I am.

And CT, Wow! Your insight is extraodinary. It is a jagged pill to swollow to consciously face the answers to those questions head on and despite how much you dislike the answers, you are determined to honor them for the truthfulness you see in them. You are amazing and valiant!

And you were worried about fitting in because of your youthfulness? Touche!

quote:

And I get the sense that with the way your father acted that it comes as a surprise for you to realize that your mother was emotinally distant too. The women we never expected would or could be. It was a shock to me too.

I was going to add to this if it's ok Russ: Because we HAD to believe that our mothers were there for us when we were children. With our fathers being so detached and unavailable we could not have beared knowing our mothers didn't fit the bill either. I know I created fantasy mothers because my mother was sorely not meeting my needs, but the painful reality of that can only be dealt with now. When one parent is so far removed from the process we have to invent a perceived truth that the other one is more available. I think many of us have done that because we cannot bear the real truth at such a young age and now we are experiencing the grief and loss of what we really never had.

quote:

It is probably not surprising that I have so much trouble interpreting what my T says. Also, it makes me feel a lot of relief to know others struggle with the T relationship and it can work out.

Incognito,
It has been quite an eye opening process for so many of us I think. And I could not have projected this 2 days ago but yes, there is another side to the hurt and despair I was feeling as well as the rupture I had experienced with my T. And what's more, I relied on other resources to get here. (internal and external) I did not call my T again becaue the painful reality is that she could not fix this for me no matter how much she or I wanted her to. Instead i was forced to sort through what I know to be true about her (frequently out loud and by the grace of everyone listening. ) but I arrived at a truth that yes, if it means it is in my best welfare to move on from her then that is what I will have to do. So I had to pick myself up, dust myself off and acknowledge the hurt, but was also surprised at my ability to stand erect again. And in that shift, (and I think this is what you've been saying HB) I found my own strength to care for myself and that yes there is even a measure of courage that I _can_ do this for myself.

I am aware that the process is not quite complete, but the shift has been made and from that I cannot turn aside. I will follow it until the fledgling that I am flaps her wings enough times to have the strength to soar and become fully autonomous.

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:

quote:

And I get the sense that with the way your father acted that it comes as a surprise for you to realize that your mother was emotinally distant too. The women we never expected would or could be. It was a shock to me too.

I was going to add to this if it's ok Russ: Because we HAD to believe that our mothers were there for us when we were children. With our fathers being so detached and unavailable we could not have beared knowing our mothers didn't fit the bill either. I know I created fantasy mothers because my mother was sorely not meeting my needs, but the painful reality of that can only be dealt with now. When one parent is so far removed from the process we have to invent a perceived truth that the other one is more available. I think many of us have done that because we cannot bear the real truth at such a young age and now we are experiencing the grief and loss of what we really never had.

JM

Thanks so much. Your response relates perfectly to the question I just asked you on your 'unwanted' thread, which I didn't even see until last night.

I am really struggling with this. It's easy to accept stuff like this about my father. His lousy parenting is clear, but my mother is a different story, and your response above illustrates the causes of why I'm having so much trouble with this idea perfectly. She wasn't overly warm and affectionate, but she also exhibited real authentic caring for me in many cases, too, like when I was extremely ill as a child. So it's confusing as hell.

Thanks again for your wonderful input.
Russ

I was doing some reading on boundaries and found the following article Boundaries in Clinical Practice by Thomas Gutheil and Glen O. Gabbard. Both authors are recognized as authorities on boundaries in therapy. There were a few passages that I've quoted below that I thought a lot of us could really relate to.

quote:

Almost all patients who enter into a psychotherapeutic process struggle with the unconscious wish to view the therapist as the ideal parent who, unlike the real parents, will gratify all their childhood wishes (19). As a result of the longings stirred up by the basic transference situation of psychotherapy or psychoanalysis, it is imperative that some degree of abstinence be maintained (20). However, strict abstinence is neither desirable nor possible, and total frustration of all the patient's wishes creates a powerful influence on the patient in its own right (8, 19).

In attempting to delineate the appropriate role for the therapist vis-a-vis the patient's wishes and longings to be loved and held, it is useful to differentiate between "libidinal demands," which cannot be gratified without entering into ethical transgressions and damaging enactments, and "growth needs," which prevent growth if not gratified to some extent (21 ). Greenson (22) made a similar distinction when he noted that the rule of abstinence was constructed to avoid the gratification of a patient's neurotic and infantile wishes, not to lead to a sterile form of treatment in which all the patient's wishes are frustrated.

Efforts to delineate the two varieties of needs often lead to problems in the area of defining the appropriate role for the therapist. Certainly, the patient may have legitimate wishes to be empathically understood, but when the therapist goes too far in the direction of trying to provide parental functions that were not supplied by the original parents, the patient may experience the therapist as making false promises.

Casement (21 ) expressed reservations about Freud's providing a meal to the Rat Man because of the possibility that the patient may have experienced Freud's taking responsibility for a particular part of his life as an implicit promise that Freud was prepared to take over responsibility for other areas of the patient's life as well. Clearly, a therapist cannot become the "good mother" or "good father" in a literal sense and attempt to make up for all the deprivations of childhood.

Even when therapists feel as though they are being coerced into a parental role by their patients, they must strive not to conform to the patients' expectations. Spruiell (1 7) made the following observation: "It is as disastrous for analysts to actually treat their patients like children as it is for analysts to treat their own children as patients" (p. 12).

So I think as much as we struggle with the limitations of what we can get from our therapists, I believe they also struggle with what is the appropriate amount of gratification to provide. Not enough, and they repeat and reinforce the deprivation of our childhood and do not provide what we need to heal. Too much and they make a promise they can not keep, and fail us like we have been failed so many times before. I think therapy sometimes resembles a high wire act, with both therapist and client trying to walk a very narrow path to healing.

AG

quote:

Clearly, a therapist cannot become the "good mother" or "good father" in a literal sense and attempt to make up for all the deprivations of childhood.

DAMN IT!

Just kidding! This is an excellent article that applies perfectly, AG! It is indeed a fine line they must balance at times. I can see why my T was frustrated. But she is doing an excellent job as hard as this must be.

Thanks for the article! I am running out of refrigerator magnets!

quote:

I am really struggling with this. It's easy to accept stuff like this about my father. His lousy parenting is clear, but my mother is a different story, and your response above illustrates the causes of why I'm having so much trouble with this idea perfectly. She wasn't overly warm and affectionate, but she also exhibited real authentic caring for me in many cases, too, like when I was extremely ill as a child. So it's confusing as hell.

Russ,
I agree with you that JM described it perfectly! I just wanted to tell you that this perfectly describes my mother also. My father disappeared after my parents divorced and left my mother to raise four children alone. And she managed, often working long hours in a factory to keep us clothed and fed. And I also, have really good memories of being wonderfully pampered when I was sick. So my mother is more mixed for me. And in some ways it was more ok to "lose" dad, I still had mom. I find it deeply ironic that it was less painful to face the damage done by the one who actually abused me and to forgive him, than it is to deal with my mom.

The pain is so much deeper because I think that to also lose mom would have been to lose everything. I also struggle with guilt because there was more good that flowed from her, and even in some ways, deep sacrifices. My T is spending a lot of time telling me that acknowledging my loss and anger does not make that good disappear or even become unknown.

AG