mlc,
I am just beginning to feel this very recently. I really was not too aware just how much I didn't really exist in my own eyes.

Interestingly, I have struggled with anorexia, too. For me, it has been a way to shrink and fade away as you said. I have always had difficulty existing and have worked hard to take up as little space as possible - physically and emotionally. There is also a sense of wanting to remain invisible because to be seen is shameful - I guess that comes from having too much of me 'seen' as a child. I also recognize the anorexia, in recent years as an attempt to go back into 'childhood' to re-do those years or try to undo the abuse. I have always had a sense that I will not be OK until/unless it is erased. The anorexia hasn't been as strong in the past year, but I need to stay mindful of the ways in creeps in.

Being seen in therapy has been really the most difficult piece and yet the most rewarding, for me. It feels amazing to know that T has seen me and accepts me. I have noticed that my body doesn't know what to do with it yet. Like it keeps checking to find she has gone, and is surprised that she's still there. It's a strange feeling.

mlc, yep, i relate to everything you say. i have always lived 'under the radar' i say in T. not wanting to be noticed, as that would make me vulnerable to rejection and possible humiliation. all those things, really emotional abuse is the category, and i have lost twenty pounds this year in all this therapy. still trying to disappear.

one thing about my new t, man, it is too LIGHT in there, really hard to disappear. have thought about asking to turn the lights down, you just feel too onstage. i find myself hiding behind my hands and pillows, too.

really interesting how we are all doing that. do y'all do this especially when tougher topics come up?? i start tapping my hands in a very nervous way i noticed last time, and just looking down and trying to disappear, kindof the tunnel vision effect.

if nothing better, this therapy is certainly interesting to see how one's body reacts without conscious 'planning', just instinctively tries to hide. just like i did as a kid, in my closet. it really sucks when no one comes looking, i like how your t said 'i see you', mlc, what did you do then??

hugs to all of you, it feels so good to not be the only one feeling these ways. xxoo, jill

Oh how I can relate to this post (and it certainly relates back to the "last post" thread created by Monte)....I struggled with anorexia for many years....I too had always wanted to just disappear...I felt unworthy of life/living....of being seen/heard....In fact, there was one point in my life where I allowed myself one calorie per day(after all, that was all I deserved)....

I had joined this forum at its inception so there weren't very many members....I remember feeling excited to belong to a community/forum wherein I could finally express myself or be heard (and I liked the anonymity of it)....I was sure wrong...After working so hard with my therapist at the time at feeling some sense of worthiness (be heard)...my words were deleted/erased/obliterated as if I wasn't worthy or my thoughts simply did not matter. Shrinklady, through this one act, had reinforced for me my sense of unworthiness....Anyway, thanks for listening/reading....

Sarah,
I'm on a break from posting but I can't sit by and just let you fling these accusations at Shrinklady without presenting the other side. I really enjoyed getting to know you Sarah and enjoyed your posts, but I was also around when the thread occurred on which your post was deleted.

This forum's stated purpose is to provide support and Shrinklady's published rules in Our Mission state that "Flaming or messages meant to intimidate or harass others." are prohibited. That thread was an increasingly heated exchange in which you were being very confrontational with another member and despite the efforts of Shrinklady, Butterfly Warrior and myself that we welcomed your opinion but did not agree, your tone escalated and you kept insisting you were being denied the right to speak although no such action was taking place. In my opinion, the post that Shrinklady deleted should have been, it was attacking and defamatory, and she was well within her rights as administrator of this site (not to mention footing the bill for the bandwidth) to delete the post as it was clearly in violation of the rule I quoted above. Even after that reconciliation was pursued and if I remember correctly, you even apologized at the time.

Since then you have surfaced occasionally, more often than not, when someone else has criticized the forum, to fling these accusations of censorship, NONE of which has been removed. As a matter of fact, in my experience, which also stretches back almost to the beginning of the forum, that is the ONLY post Shrinklady ever deleted. All other deleted posts have been taken down by the author (which is absolutely their right, again expressly sanctioned by Shrinklady's rules, the author owns their posts.)

Sarah, I have a question, which I honestly don't mean as an accusation, but as an honest question. If you see this as such a bad place where people are censored and not supported, why do you keep coming back? And from what I've observed of your posts, seemingly only with the intention of criticizing the forum, not providing or receiving support?

I am glad that you're back and posting and I certainly recognize your right to say what you believe is the truth, and I do believe that you are telling the truth as you see it, but I only think that's it fair to Shrinklady and other members involved that the other side is presented.

AG

Sarah, it is great to see your post. good thread, mlc, and nice to "see" you too!

For myself, I feel I was never seen by my family, unless I was "perfect and desirable in every way." (Smart, pretty, funny, talented) So I tried to be all those things as much as I could because I in fact, wanted to be "seen."

So I guess, kind of the opposite problem.

BB

All that I can say is that my post was misunderstood....and with such harsh words directed at me, once again, I go to a place of retreat....a deeply saddened, tearful Sarah.......

being seen, freaks me out, and yet at the same time, it's what I long for - in therapy and in the rest life.

something really struck me about being close in my last equine T session, just physically close, and yet I would get small and would shrink away, yet wanted to be close and wanted to been noticed - like i was. so unconditionally seen and accepted.

i wanted to run and wanted to stay.

when i was a kid, i would pretend i was invisible, and at times ven would not want to disturb the air molecules above my head to raise my hand in class, and yet i longed to be loved and do well and be seen as smart and most of all loved and valued by both my parents...

I've hid for away for most off my life, hoping i could disappear. I recently had my haircut and i was sitting with my T and said now i can see how much I hid behind my hair when I was with her. She asked me what's it like to come out of hiding? I replied 'uncomfortable' It's slowly getting better

Hev

just one final comment...thank you to the one member who privately emailed me....a member who cared enough to travel back in time, read the posts (except for the deleted one) and understand......I am most appreciative!

quote:

In T, I think I often look down, refuse to look at her, hide behind pillows, my hands, whatever. Usually I can't stand the vulnerability of really being seen, but then there are times that I will let her really see me and just go with what I am feeling and it is such a relief to just be able to be whatever I am at the time and be accepted for that.

This is me, constantly hiding. The last two sessions I've actually worn my sunglasses. When T asked why, I said, "Because I don't want you to see my eyes." She said I was hiding, and I said, "Well, it's too hot to bring a blanket." (inside joke, I've done that to hide in, too) She said I was trying to avoid a connection with her, and it was true. And yet, there have been moments of exposure when I was accepted and validated by her, so why is it still so hard to be seen?

This is a great post, mlc. My T and I talked about the being heard/ seen a lot yesterday. I can definitely relate to what everyone is saying about wanting to be invisible. Yesterday, a lot of feelings came up about wishing I was never born. I don’t want to kill myself, I just wish my mom had chosen to never have kids. Of course my T was his normal amazing self and told me that he’s happy I exist. He also said that he is impressed with my strength. I rolled my eyes at that, but he explained that I’m with him for only one hour a week and then the rest of the time I have no one who really sees me- no one who asks questions, who cares about my life, who encourages me, but I’m still working hard and doing what I need to do to find health. At the end of the session I was left in a difficult place and my T mentioned that if scheduling permits it, we could schedule a double session. And I said, “An hour and a half of feeling like I exist?! That would be cool.” I really do feel like I exist with him. And if nothing else, I’m at least happy that I exist when I’m with my T.

maclove

Sarah - i'm mixed up and i tend to say stupid stuff, so please take my post lightly. it's really clear you feel really hurt by Shrinklady deleting your post. i'm not sure how to respond. i'm not sure if you are seeking support and comfort, a chance to try again, or...? i'm honestly kind of confused about if you are hoping/trying to stay or trying to go - or maybe both?

why the retreat? are you afraid you will post something else and it will be deleted again? that doesn't seem to be happening, and i'd love to get to know you. i would like you to stay, but if you chose to retreat, i can't really stop you... it's kinda ultimately up to you...?

i don't think any of us can really do anything about Shrinklady's actions or the past.

in the theme of being seen, i'd like to get to know more of *you*. maybe your hurt makes sharing much more of you is scary, but it also can be a way to heal...?

maybe you feel like AG's words were harsh - i'm not in your shoes or her's. i think people are really welcoming and inviting you to be here and be seen, even AG by pointing out that you are able to post here and have been doing so...

i hope you reconsider and we get to see more of you sarah.


AG - i thought you were on break! you have good input, and i see a sweetness in your response. part of my heart wants to say oh AG, stay on break if you need to, and most of my heart just wants to say glad to see you AG! take care and *see* you when you are ready to post again.

REFLECTIONS...

Thank you Jane Doe for your wonderings....I have been reflecting on your wonderings along with AG's question....In looking back, I wish that I had not responded to Monte's post...it's just that in my heart, I really could relate....I have been really afraid to post since the unfortunate incident that happened oh so long ago....I was soooooooo misunderstood....

I wasn't trashing Shrinklady (as AG pointed out), I was simply relating to Monte and expressing my standpoint/experience and the deep hurt that emerged as a result....I guess what I have been longing for was, as Shrinklady has posted/named in the section titled "Therapy Lingo", a "corrective emotional experience"...so that I could once and for all bring resolution to this deeply painful experience of the past and move forward...become an active member of this community....receive and provide support....

In terms of the past event....I had wanted to enter into a healthy debate regarding DID with the hope of understandings anew emerging ... I am sorry that my post at that time was not received as I had originally intended... I had apologized but the apology was not accepted....

To this end, AG's harsh words have led me to the path of retreat....I had hoped for something so different...I took a risk in posting, dipped my big toe into the waters, so to speak,...hoping for a "corrective emotional experience"....and that certainly did not happen....

A deeply saddened, tearful Sarah

Sarah, thanks, that's really helpful to understand better where you are at now and what you are hoping for.

quote:

I took a risk in posting, dipped my big toe into the waters, so to speak,...hoping for a "corrective emotional experience"....and that certainly did not happen....

maybe it is still very possible to have a "corrective emotional experience" here still... i'm not a T, and this forum is kinda like - as someone said somewhere (sorry I don't remember) group therapy. well, it's a place for people who are all dealing with our stuff. that's for sure.

am i summarizing right to say that you feel like you took a risk, and you feel... rejected? i don't see that anyone has rejected you as a person. maybe i'm wrong, but i still see people here welcoming you and inviting you to stay. i can't and won't speak for AG, but i don't see that she is rejecting you as a person - she is perhaps disagreeing with what you've said - but disagreement is different than rejection of a person. she even pointed out that you are free to keep posting.

gosh, i'd just like to get to know you better. i hope you stay and share more about you and your 'stuff' (so to speak) and what's going on in your life, and over time, i think you might have that corrective experince of not being rejected and being accepted. i think it's worth the risk.

i wouldn't be here at all, in so many ways, if it wasn't worth the risk of being seen.

i have dealt with a lot of rejection in my life - i guess it's why been 'seen' is so scary for me. i don't want to be rejected, and yet i want to be known and be accepted... oh, so badly... and i can't ever be known unless i take that risk i will be rejected. my healing path has taken time, and a lot of relationships, and risk - and it will keep taking that... i have a long ways to go myself...

i dunno - what do you think?

Hi all, thank you for your replies...I'd like to respond to each of them...

Draggers: thank you, and yes, you make perfect sense and are always very helpful... I too used to be and still am a 'tomboy' to make myself less seen as a woman...attention from men/my Dad has been very confusing/invasive for me and I was never sure what it meant...and ...I certainly care that you are here in this 'messed up world'...and it is messed up!

Seablue: ..'to be seen is shameful...' yes, for me too....'re-do childhood to undo abuse...' I find this very interesting..I hadn't thought much about that before. I was wondering, too, if you do 'mindfulness' work? I'm curious because I am trying to do such work with my T..

Jill: '...I have lost 20lbs.' I must confess that this worries me about you...I'm hoping you are not developing an eating disorder? and I hope I'm not being offensive to you ...and I've been wanting to tell you that I really enjoy the way you write..I find you very descriptive with words that are dead-on for me...as for your question about what I did next...I still just stared at the floor but such a warm feeling came over me...warm with tears and gratitude for what my T said...I felt 'touched' in a loving sort of way...

BB: "So I guess I have the opposite problem.." I was thinking about that...you still had a huge part of you that you had to keep hidden from your family; so you really weren't truly seen...how do you feel about that part of yourself now...how do you carry it with you?

STRM: '...such a relief to just be able to be whatever I am at the time and be accepted..' Yes!! isn't it..I find it to be so beautiful..and it does make me want to cry...

JaneDoe: I've been reading all your posts about equine therapy and I find them fascinating...thank You...I sometimes long to be seen too..to be so special...

Heather 63: Hi...how is coming out of hiding uncomfortable for you--if you don't mind sharing...

MH: love your name...I can't believe you had the guts to wear sunglasses to therapy--if I did I would have, too! "...so why is it still so hard to be seen.." I'm still processing this with my T...

MacLove: I could have written your post--I cann so relate to what you wrote...I have no one but my T who sees me, too...and I used to have 'death fantasies' when I was little...

Sarah: How are you doing? I too look forward to getting to know you better...I am curious about you and care about your opinions...I hope you stay on the forum...

Thank You all for your thoughts and feelings...mlc

Thank you to those who have made me feel welcome to participate....I believe that disagreement is healthy....in fact, I welcome it with open arms, but AG has painted a rather monstrous picture of me...and I am deeply hurt by it....it feels like she can have her opinion by I am a monster because I have mine....I haven't been able to stop the flow of tears since I read her post...Guess I won't be getting any work/writing done on my thesis today (I am just finishing up my masters)... as I am too distraught to concentrate....I hope that as I reflect further, I will come to a deeper understanding of things!

Sarah,
I did not in any way mean to be harsh with you. I was upset with what I saw (emphasis on "I") as a slanted and unfair presentation of what happened in the past. You did not just talk about your feelings, you made statements about what others did, which I believe were your interpretation of their actions. I was presenting mine.

And if you believe disagreement is healthy than why is any opinion that differs from your own seen as an attack. I believe I went out of my way to state that I was glad you were posting, that you had every right to express yourself and even that I believed you telling the truth from your understanding. I fail to see how this lacks respect towards you.

In return, you have accused me of being "harsh"
"painting a monstrous picture," and that I have reduced you to tears to the point that you are unable to work, and made it unsafe for you to post.

I am sorry, but I deeply love this place and the people who post here and care for their well-being, and whether or not you believe it, that includes you. My desire was not to destroy you but to defend others against what I saw as unfair treatment. I am truly sorry that you have experienced that as something else.

There are obviously a lot of other members willing to support you and provide space for you to heal in. I am attempting to take a break from posting, not very successfully at this point obviously, so you may post knowing that you are safe from any responses from me. I promise that this will be the last time I respond to any of your posts unless you request otherwise in the hope that it will help make this a safe place for you. I know that it will be close to impossible for you to believe right now but you really do have my best wishes.

mlc, my deepest apologies for hijacking your thread, it was an excellent question and a great discussion to have. It's good to see you posting again.

Sarah - wow, your masters thesis? How is it going? I'm hoping to go back to school to finish my last semester and then on to grad school soon, hopefully very soon! studying for the GRE now. (oh I am so eager to go back!) I'm sorry you feel so sad. Hang in there.

Do you have a T? have you talked with them about how you are doing? just concerned.

btw, I don't think AG or Shrinklady or anyone has "painted a monstrous picture" of you at all! I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t see you as a monster and I don’t see anyone treating you as one. It's been said we should not think for others - well, please don't "see" for me AG even said, “I’m glad you’re back and posting…”

Can I respectfully suggest - try taking us at our words and don’t do our thinking for us? (oh, I say this as someone who tries to think and see for others all the time!!!) hope your day turns around. hope you know that you are cared about.

y'no, just snooping on this, and i like what you say janedoe, don't think for us...i am so used to doing that, picking up on sublties to stay safe. my t, who i am actually bragging on a bit lately, told me i am living like i am in a war zone, but i don't realize the war is over. anyway, good stuff all as usual!! jill

AG: I wish I could understand more deeply how things evolved to this point...perhaps we can just agree to disagree.....and move forward from here??

Janedoe: I have completed all of the 9 core courses and am currently at the research stage...My research focused on spirituality at end of life....I did a hermeneutic study....I should be done by December 2010....I plan on starting the PhD program September 2011....I do not currently have a therapist...11 years was more than enough for me...

Dragonfly, mlc and others...thanks from the bottom of my heart for your words of encouragement and support, I am most appreciative!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jill:
my t, who i am actually bragging on a bit lately, told me i am living like i am in a war zone, but i don't realize the war is over.

i was just thinking about that same idea today jill. oh that is so me. my T encourages me to not use the word "trigger" but instead say "something in my present is reminding me of my past" and she reminds/validates that it may be my recent past and it could happen in the future, but it's not happening right now... it's more cumbersome, but that process does help my head start to learn a little more. (and my T really has nothing against the word trigger or anything, it's really useful - she uses it and so do i - it just helps too for me to spell it out a little in the moment of being really "triggered" and trying to learn that the stinking war from heck is over. OVER. at least i hope it is.)

out of self protection, i live like the trauma is now, always happening or just about to happen second from now and I'm SICK OF IT!
grr. the stupid "war" took up enough of my life. the war is over. my brain and body just haven't learned that yet.

(hmmm, sorry, think i needed to vent for a moment. those words that the "war is over" just stuck in my head in a good way jill.)

sarah - wow! a hermeneutic study about spirituality at the end of life? that's got to be really interesting - something i struggle to sort out personally. i could not imagine doing an entire thesis on it - that's amazing work! glad you are still here too (good to see more of you )

eeek, I don't know what is going on here, I'm no T- but all I have to say is AG, I love you, and Sarah, you are of course welcome here, and hope you can work things out. AG's words didn't sound harsh to me, though I can understand how hard it is to be called on something, I often really struggle with stuff like that myself, and it can feel like an attack when really the person is just trying to communicate honestly. I think she is trying to reach out to you, without being dishonest about how she is feeling, and what she remembers, is all. Very good to see you continue trying! It can work-! If there is anything to be sorry for, believe me, we all have things to be sorry for, and all are used to forgiving eachother and trying again! Nothing unusal about that. I have PLENTY to be sorry for! Good to see your post!

BB

I'm sorry for interrupting again, mlc...this is for Sarah.

quote:

I had apologized but the apology was not accepted....

I also read through your posts, Sarah. Your apology was indeed clearly accepted by Shrinklady, AG, and Butterfly Warrior on your Apology thread. You also acknowledged and expressed gratitude for the acceptance and forgiveness you received. And then you seemed to adopt a whole new focus of talking about your own experiences, receiving and giving support, which is exactly the spirit of this forum.

Sarah, this whole issue you are bringing up again appears to have been resolved beautifully quite a while ago with your apology, which was in agreement with everything Shrinklady, AG, and Butterfly Warrior brought up then, and everything AG is reminding you of now. So I do not understand why you are now claiming to having been attacked. Your apology implied agreement, and your apology was accepted. Now you say it wasn't accepted, that you really were attacked, and so it appears your apology wasn't genuine. You say you don't understand how things got to this point, that maybe you can "agree to disagree". But that is totally unfair. What is it you are disagreeing on? AG is not attacking you or portraying you as "monstrous" in any way, shape, or form, Sarah. But I do see you misrepresenting what happened, and then claiming you are being attacked and misunderstood when you are called on it. "Agreeing to disagree" on this feels very dismissive of the attempts made to straighten out the issue that you yourself brought up.

What makes me just sick inside is that it is exactly these kinds of problems that rips boards apart. I've really debated whether or not to respond so many times lately...do I sit by and say nothing? I can't stand that either...how do I know whether I'm really part of the problem or the solution or whatever, it is getting hard to discern anymore. And it makes me so sad, everything that is going on lately...and ironically enough, it is happening on the heels of that thread where so many of us expressed amazement and gratitude that our little "ecosystem", as Jones likes to call it, seemed unusually free from the problems other boards seem to have. The other board that I frequently check just went through a colossal disruption and has split (and no I wasn't a part of it, I barely participated, less than 30 posts on a board of almost 2000). And it really makes me sad that it seems to be starting here too.

Sarah, can I leave you (and Monte too if you are reading this) with some final thoughts. That the primary reason you and Monte have generated this much discussion with your posts is because we really love this forum and want everyone to feel welcome here. We want to preserve it from the kinds of things that rip forums apart. You both seem to claim being excluded in some way...that generates a lot of concern. People on this forum tend to lean toward taking too much responsibility for things, so if something is being pointed out to you, chances are there is something to it. So even if it hurts your feelings, please try to take a look at it anyway and see if there is some truth to it. No one is actually trying to exclude you. But if we don't all observe certain basic principles, eventually there will be no reason for anyone to feel included or excluded because there will be no forum anymore.

SG

I think a lot of us, when conflict surfaces, start to feel like the sky is falling in.

We think of the worst possible outcome from the conflict and we slip into high activation because of that danger. The danger might feel like "I'm hated" or "the board is falling apart" or "someone (or their reputation) is being damaged". Sometimes it can be hard to separate those fears from the basic ingredients of just seeing things in different ways, feeling different things, and saying so.

But we can see things in different ways, past and present, without those catastrophes happening. We can even articulate the disagreements and still stay safe, and still respect each other. It just takes grounding ourselves, realising we are actually safe in ourselves and our homes and that this is just a conversation, not a threat. Chances are the board won't disappear, even if people have different feelings, different opinions and even different perceptions of things we might see as 'reality'. Let's give each other that space, and maybe we can recognise the huge ground that we share, too - we're pretty good at that around here.

I LOVED Janedoe's post about how to ground yourself, and I think it is full of stuff that could be useful right now - especially for any of us feeling unsettled by conflict. It's here:
Mindfulness techniques

We have all these resources at our fingertips.

Love,
Jones

Incidentally, I don't mean here to minimise the hurts people feel over stuff. Hurts hurt, just as fears are scary. The feelings are real in us and we need to attend to them inside ourselves, and treat ourselves gently. xxx

Strummergirl: I think you missed the one individual "the dude" who did not accept the apology....yes indeed the others did and I was grateful for that....I have not misrepresented what happened for I have simply shared my story from my standpoint....I am sorry that you are not open to hearing/seeing me....

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for clarifying that you meant the dude had not accepted your apology. You did not mention him at all, you made a general statement that your apology had not been accepted within in the context of what AG had said, so it was not at all clear to me that you were referring to the dude.

And I am most certainly open to hearing and seeing you, which is why I took the time to go back and read all your posts and ask the questions in the first place. I wanted to offer support, but did not know how to offer it when your message seemed to be contradictory. Thank you for explaining what you really meant. And I would also like to say, welcome "back" to the forums! I do look forward to getting to know you better.

Take care,
SG

SG: I guess my inablility to express myself clearly is quite apparent....I often find it difficult to put to language what it is that I mean...and of course the words that I write are so open to interpretation by each of you individually....I can only speak/write my truth ... which was what I thought that I had done....I guess I don't do well with groups....and the group here has grown so much over the years....I am feeling a little shakey about responding to any more posts....perhaps it is best that I keep my responses to myself....

Sarah, we all find it difficult to express ourselves, for various reasons. So you are just like everyone else here in that respect, you are among friends who understand this. As for this particular issue, it seems to be resolved, so I'm not going to say anything more about it one way or the other. To tell you the truth the conflict is just about killing me, I am an avoidant by nature and I hate arguments. But I also love this forum which is why I said anything in the first place. At any rate I would really like to get back to the main purpose of this forum, offering and receiving support to each other regarding our therapy, and in some cases, the issues that brought us to therapy. I hope you will stick around and join us in that, Sarah. And with that, I really am going to stop hijacking mlc's thread. Now I'm going to go post about my really great couples session yesterday on the Spouses and Therapy thread because I've been dying to tell you all how good it went.

SG

Sarah - yeah, I see that the dude didn't accept your apology. I'm thinking (perhaps mind reading?) that it hurts that the dude didn't...

can I ask maybe a hard question? does it change your apology? (I'm guessing it doesn't?) Do you think we think any less of you if someone didn't accept it? I actually think it's even more brave of you... I think one of the incredibly hard and beautiful and courageous (and sometimes horribly painful) things about apologies are that they are not dependent on acceptance of them. The words and heart and intention of an apology is still there even if the person doesn't accept it. I see that you still mean what you said even if the dude didn't accept it... Reagrdless of acceptance of it, it doesn't take anything away from your heart or who you are behind the apology, or what you apoligized for. AND, that being said, it is really even more wonderful when apolgies are accepted, and it is even more painful when apolgies are not. It's a huge risk to apoligize, and i can understand why it hurts when it's not accepted.

(btw, I'm actually really finding something that syncs with my own stuff about what you said in your apology...)

There's also something that is sticking out for me in reading everyone trying to sort this out: Grace is hard to receive. It's often much easier to give. This forum gives it well, but I dunno if we all accept and receive it very well.

I have actually had more than one friend in my own life actually get very downright frustrated and mad with me that I did not accept grace and kindness they have for me. I simply would not take them at their word and would almost get angry back at any sign of rejection, when all along, they were actually offering grace and kindness... ugh, i actually can give really good examples...

Sarah, I kinda wonder that maybe that's a part of AG's reaction, like "whoa, hey, you have grace here... why are you bringing it up again?" Maybe I am totally missing the boat though on all of this.

my heart just longs to say - Sarah, it's ok. It's really truly ok. You are accepted and cared about just as you are. And it's ok if you can't believe that right now. It's very ok.

It seems like you feel hurt because you don't feel like you have been forgiven and are not accepted, and others are confused because they feel like they have forgiven you and they do accept you? I dunno - that may be a worng way to sum up everything - it certainly leaves out a lot.

And I might be a total jerk or maybe I'm just off my rocker for saying any of this!!! that may be actually the only thing I am certain of. (grace for msyelf, grace for myself... dang it, i have no grace for myself.)

What I see in all of this right now is a ton of a lot of grace in every direction and it's also seems hard for a lot of people to really take that in.

Grace helps it to be safe to be seen, not as we hope to be seen, but just as we are. I think that's what helps heal. Yet, grace doesn't make all the pain and heartache go away. Sometimes it seems to just make it more the real for me.

...ok, me and my kleneex, my comfused head, the foot I have stuck in my mouth, are gonna go run and hide from the fact that yeah, I'm posting this. And if I am being foolish or mean or rambly or just totally off in saying this - please forgive me and just ignore this.

On a side note: looking back, it doesn't surprise me that we hit this rough spot after people posted things about why they like the forum. (stupid hindsight.) It seems like it stirred up things for some people that couldn't reasonate with some of the good things that were expressed. All the good and bad are valid perspectives... I hope and think that in the end, it will be ok and we will all keep coming back together as a forum. There are boundaries we need to keep moving forward, and it's ok if we accidentally screw up and go outside them, as long as we keep taking responsibility for ourseleves (in all kinds of ways) and coming back together and talking about it. (?) But then again, I'm the one with a box of klneex in my hand and both feet in my mouth already.

anyone feel like they are always in relationship kindergarten and grad school at the same time? I feel like that in all of my life.

oh dang, just got the two posts by SG and Sarah after posting that.

Sarah - for example of inability to express my own self well, see above response.

SG - yay! I'm so glad your couples session
went well! can't wait to read about it!

Janedoe: Thank you for your sharings....they all made sense to me....I am happy to lay this all to rest and move forward....I suspect that I too need my box of kleenex for awhile...this whole experience has me exhausted....and I certainly had not intended or expected to create this mess....so let's move forward!!

AG: I am sorry that my earlier response to you was short and didn't really express what I had wanted to....I have always really appreciated and been in awe of your well thought out sharings!! I indeed been enlightened on oh so many occasions. Thank you for listening and welcoming me back to the forum!!

And to all others, I thank you for welcoming me back to the forum too!!!

S'all good, Sarah, glad you're back posting.

BB, I love you too.

OK, now I'm really going to go take that break.

me too, JD...welcome back, Sarah. It is so good to see this wrok out, that I could cry.

AG, I just want to lean my head on your shoulder right now. BB just loves AG.

Wow UV...great article and great posts--I think you express yourself so beautifully...I can really understand and relate to what you say in both of them! Thank you so much...I was a child of a highly narcissistic mother btw...I am going to check out the link you provided...I feel sad your T is not well and that you are worried..please let us know how it is going if you want to share...mlc

The thing that terrifies me most about therapy is being 'seen' by my T! Actually, that's one of things that terrifies me most about life in general!

I didn't realise how much I hide until I started therapy. One way I hide is by not looking at people when I am talking. I just can't do it! I have tried to force myself to do it with my T but it feels unbearable. I know it is really important that I learn that it's safe to look but I wish I had an intermediate step between not looking and looking! Any ideas anyone ? (I have asked my T but he didn't come up with anything)

S x

I sometimes am scared to look at my T in the eyes, oe even look at her in the face when I am discussing SA. I have a fear that I will see disgust, horror, rejection from her...usually these are the times that she asks me to look at her face so I can see that she is not disgusted by me...that's really hard. The other fear is that I might look at her and see 'him'..sometimes I manage to tell her that, sometimes I can't but wish I did.

starfish

Dragonfly, thanks very much for your suggestion - I am seeing my T today so will try it out (if I remember that is - I am really bad at remembering things when I'm there!)

quote:

Originally posted by dragonfly:
......only thing is..people do start wiping and touching their nose if i am starring at it!!!!!
dragonfly

LOL!

S x