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Having a rupture with T. He made some questionable calls and maybe outright mistakes our last couple of sessions, especially Monday, when he was in his own stuff from not feeling well and should have sent me home.

I've spent the last couple of days terrified that things were going to fall apart. Basically, that I'd be blamed for those mistakes, because my instability causes him to respond differently to me than to other clients, than maybe he should. That he would finally realize I was toxic, ruin relationships, turn people bad, and have to retreat to protect both of us. I finally heard back from him that all is well and nothing has changed, so I guess that it will be OK.

Except, objectively, he probably did make some really bad calls on top of just being not at all attuned to me when I was trying to share, which caused me to shut down. I know I should talk to him, at the very least to say that it is more protective of me to send me home (despite disappointment) than to try to push through and work around not sending me home. I offered to go home at least three times. Then again, I pretty much always offer at least once per session out of pure shame. Part of it was...just bad decisions...and part was I got super triggered by both his stress and something random he said that may have triggered a major anxiety for me, if not a part of a memory, that basically caused me to perceive him temporarily as a potential abuser.

I know I have to talk to him about this, but when I think about it, the terror of all that stuff comes back. The terror that it will all be put on my shoulders as something I caused by being broken, complicated, difficult. I mean, I don't even want an apology from him. I get that he's human and really worn out and will make mistakes and not always be able to discern and act perfectly in my best interest. But, he's safe, and I should be able to tell him when it causes me distress. I just don't know how to do it without feeling annihilated.

It's like I'm reliving this cycle of being abused or neglected, then my caregiver feeling insecure or bad, then being blamed or asked to take responsibility for them not being able to handle their internal conflict with their self-image as "good parent," then being abandoned as a result of it, like it's impossible to relate to me without abusing me, so I must be ruining them. I think it's dad stuff, mostly, or maybe it's a combination of both. It's really heavy transference and so confusing. I really don't know how to explain it to T without fearing he'll hear it as an accusation, rather than simply my own distress, concerns, and boundaries. It's not like I believe T doesn't care...it's almost like I really have internalized that it's impossible for someone to do so without me either destroying them or turning them bad.

Anyway, sorry I'm being vague. I've gotten varying responses to the couple of people I've told, including H. Like, that it was a huge mistake and needs to be addressed or like, H's, "And...so what? He's human, it happens." I'm scared of everyone judging my T if I post more specifically about it. It's really...not good...but it's his stuff and an area I'm aware of him having issues with, specifically with when he seems to be getting ill.

I did already talk to him, in that session, about how what he mentioned triggered a fear of him turning bad. And I did mention right away that I had shut down on a few topics, because it seemed like he wasn't hearing me or didn't find them important. And even tried to tell him that his own stress was affecting me deeply. I basically apologized for detaching and explained that I was getting really anxious. Then later, that it was kind of "osmosis," but he didn't understand right away that I meant his stress was deeply affecting me, so I felt so wrong and couldn't explain it further.

I know part of all of this was just setting up for failure. Because, one of the questionable calls he made on Fri (previous session) actually had a profound, positive, connective (attachment) effect on me. So, even though I immediately thought, "See, I'm turning him bad, because he's getting too close, and it's going to break everything," it actually created a major shift inside, attachment-wise. So, I had already entered in with a kind of acceptance of that attachment, and at the same time, a resistance and terror about it. So, for Monday to go so bad was heightened by the fear of how close things had felt with me sharing something important to me and him helping me through how hard it was.

Anyway, I'm rambling here, but I am feeling really confused about how to work through this with T, despite the terror of annihilation or abandonment...or worse, destroying T with my toxicity somehow. And especially terrified to tell him about accepting the attachment and how that makes things so much more confusing right now. Sorry this is so long and I don't even know what I'm asking for here. And sorry I'm not much support to anyone right now. It's been like a crisis roller coaster lately for me.

Thanks for reading.
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(((Yaku))))

I wonder if it would help to read to him what you wrote here in your next session. It's hard to respond not knowing what he did that was wrong but I can see that you both care a great deal about each other. I suspect that in some ways you are taking on what he did and carrying the responsibility where it is not yours but rather his. If he is ill and that is causing him to be a less stable therapist it is his duty to at the least let you know that it is not your fault etc. But then I don't know what happened.

What I do get out of what you wrote is that you are in an emotional bind right now. You are struggling between bad feelings toward yourself (that you think you are tainted and that you destroy relationships etc) and disparaging feelings toward your T (that he breached something in your therapeutic relationship and is not handling it well) I am hoping that you can sort of rest somewhere in the middle. Not only is he human but so are you Yaku. You are human too and you make mistakes just like anyone else. You are not a bad person. You are not someone who wants to hurt others etc. You are in therapy to heal and get better. That is what your job is in this relationship. I wish you were kinder to yourself. Try to step back and look at the long relationship you have had with him. See that you two have more going for you than this one incident. Perhaps you two can get something out of this like moving your relationship forward and come to some understanding of what would help in the future

((((((((((Yaku)))))))))))))
(((YAKU))))

I just wanted to add a little more.

quote:
The terror that it will all be put on my shoulders as something I caused by being broken, complicated, difficult.


I get this. It IS complicated. It's like we are the ones being hurt and when we try to be assertive, we get blamed for being difficult or whatever.


quote:


It's like I'm reliving this cycle of being abused or neglected, then my caregiver feeling insecure or bad, then being blamed or asked to take responsibility for them not being able to handle their internal conflict with their self-image as "good parent," then being abandoned as a result of it, like it's impossible to relate to me without abusing me, so I must be ruining them. I think it's dad stuff, mostly, or maybe it's a combination of both. It's really heavy transference and so confusing.


Aww, I really know how this feels too. I'm kind of in a similar spot with my T. My T is stressed to the max. It's showing. He's exhausted. I'm so afraid that he will just say, Liese, this is it. I'm tired and something HAS to go and that thing is YOU. I actually said that to him in my session the other day. He denied it. Said he was NEVER giving up on me. But, IDK, it's hard to work past this.

I don't know what it is but I do feel like my relationship with my T is broken. Is it because I finally see him as a human being and not as a perfect daddy figure who will never let me down? I don't know how to navigate this shift in perception. Do you? My child parts still need him to be what they need him to be.
(((Amber))) Thanks for the hugs and relating. Part of what makes this all so confusing is all the different parts relating to him in different ways. I don't know how he manages it at times, the parts of me that want him to be very strictly a therapist vs. the parts that feel so attached to him.

(((turtles))) Though I've shared a lot of journals with him before, I'm still not to the point of being able to read them out loud to him...but I will have to find a way to talk about it somehow. I just hope he helps me get there. If it doesn't seem he is hearing me, I will probably shut down. A bind is a good way to describe it. I think I'm less disparaging toward my T as I am unclear on what he thinks this relationship is, because the spiritual (familial/mentorship) component of it for him, plus the attachment component of it for me, makes it very confusing. And I'm not sure if those are the reasons maybe he behaves a bit outside what I would expect from a T, or if it is just, "Whoops, I'm human and didn't have my T hat on today!" Which I can accept easily. Or I can accept if he frames the relationship a certain way or another, but it feels like he vacillates on it and that confuses me a lot. Again, I'm complicated, so...I get it.

(((Liese))) Thanks for the hugs and the words. I can tell you really get the emotions I'm struggling with. I'm so sorry it feels like your T relationship is broken too. That really...just sucks...a lot.

(((SP))) Thanks for asking. I haven't posted, because I'm kind of in limbo. IOP was supposed to call me with more information last Friday and never did, but I was also supposed to set up with a psychiatrist and I never did that, so maybe that's related.

I tried to go through a psychiatrist who can refer to the IOP who actually works in T's Mon/Tue office, but she wasn't in network, and with all the insurance problems I've had getting accurate out-of-network quotes, I couldn't go with her. There was a delay, because we asked them for a single case agreement, but it was rejected after several days.

So, I contacted another option yesterday, and the psychiatrist's office took down my information and said they'd get back to me with an appointment once they checked out my insurance, but I haven't heard from them either. But, I'm scared of these people for some unknown reason (wasn't of the first lady I tried to work with), and they seemed to be confused and trying to put me in the program at their sister hospital, which is too far for me to get back from the program in time to pick up Boo from school...

So, long story short, I really don't have a clue what's going on with the IOP right now. Maybe it's not meant to be.

I'm being diligent, though. I also called my insurance to see if they could help me find in-network therapists with dissociative disorder experience, so I could maybe get an adjunct going if I could locate one who does a type of therapy I'm interested in in the area, as an alternative to IOP. But...that person didn't return my call either.

Oh yeah, and the program has a waiting list of at least three weeks.


Sigh...hanging in there...
((yaku)) I know it's really hard when T gives too much and the feelings of shame there. I'm sorry he was sick and triggered you Frowner I hate when Ts muck up. Wishing you luck with that IOP stuff AND with finding an adjunct. It's very difficult, and not something even my own T of so long has done much. Frowner Some Ts don't like to.... I called at least 10 Ts when I was trying to leave T2 none of them were willing (some didn't call me back). It took my insurance a bit too because they were like why so much therapy? And I had to explain... me so crazy that's why! Just be patient and you will find something!!
quote:
It took my insurance a bit too because they were like why so much therapy? And I had to explain... me so crazy that's why!


You seriously made my day, (((Cat))). Just how I feel. Thanks for the encouragement!

Good news about the IOP, if I get in, is that they do DBT groups for an hour or so two or three days a week, so if I pick those days to go, I'll get to try that out.
Swear to GOD. One time my insurance contacted me and sent me a form asking me about hygene etc. to see if I needed continued help. They asked how often I bathe etc. I literally wrote in block letters across the page

"I WIPE MY @SS JUST FINE! THANK YOU VERY MUCH!"

They decided to give me as many sessions as I needed after that.
I think I felt some of the confusion between all the different levels of relating when I was reading your post because I found myself not being able to formulate a response - because everything seemed so multifaceted.

Although you can't really avoid the 'everyone's human' aspect of therapy, in that misattunement is kind of inevitable at times, if T did make a dodgy judgement call about his fitness to be doing therapy when he was tired or ill, then that seems a really reasonable thing to discuss with him - and although deeply scary it could be a healing experience to bring in some of how you are feeling about how he handled the situation.

quote:
It's like I'm reliving this cycle of being abused or neglected, then my caregiver feeling insecure or bad, then being blamed or asked to take responsibility for them not being able to handle their internal conflict with their self-image as "good parent," then being abandoned as a result of it, like it's impossible to relate to me without abusing me, so I must be ruining them.


Have you ever talked about what you said above with T? I think one of the hardest and riskiest feeling things sometimes is feeling safe enough and worthy enough to feed back to our Ts. Most Ts expect feedback and discussion about the relationship. If things feel off to you, or inconsistent and that is a source of stress - then a conversation about how your expectations of a T and his are similar and different might be useful to the both of you.

I do get how hard this is and I have quaked in my boots and shaken like a leaf when attempting to do what I have so casually suggested above! Sometimes it takes me weeks to get to the point of sharing what's going on for me.

(((Yaku)))
(((Mallard))) Haha, I guess my confusion was really palpable, huh?

I have actually talked to him a lot (and also written in detail) about these past experiences that you quoted. I know that's not really what is happening in the present, but because he did actually make some errors (not relationship-ending), and those errors affected me, I have this instinctive need to protect him from seeing it affected me, because it feels it will lead to that cycle I described. I know he wouldn't actually do any of that, other than he will be honest about the reasoning for his decision to stay (which was probably just that I don't do well with last minute changes).

The hardest part right now is the thing I feel most scared about is that there are ways that he is a lot closer than many Ts maybe tend to get. So, I feel like I have "made him bad" because going by the stricter side of his profession, he has allowed maybe too much closeness? HE doesn't feel that way, but I am always afraid of getting him in trouble by breaking some invisible rules. It's a lot to do with JW upbringing from my grandma.

I'm really hoping he will introduce the topic somehow. It will be so tempting, since he said all is well and nothing has changed for me to just leave it there. But, I really ought to tell him at least that it's really OK to send me home in those circumstances.


In IOP news, I have a session with a psychiatrist scheduled for next Thursday. Truly freaked out, but I just keep telling myself I can back out at any time...
Haha, I guess my confusion was really palpable, huh?

Yeah, I was like "Why can't I think straight about this?!"

Early on in our relationship, my T self-disclosed way more than I was really used to and it's not something some of the more rigidly boundaried Ts would do. It freaked me out a fair bit because I wasn't sure what to make of it. I think it was partly her style and partly to do with helping to relieve some of my intense discomfort around new Ts. I can and will project anything on to a really blank screen and that's really uncomfortable for me. So I was grateful to get a better view of 'her' - yet still freaked out. Weird huh.

I'm sorry you struggle with feeling like you 'make' your T bad. I have a tendency to make myself responsible for other people's feelings and actions - it's been hard to get my head around the fact that other people have freedom and choices too.

I hope the psych appt goes okay. Hug two
So, the update is, I did it.

Eventually...

At first I committed to not talking about it at all, though let him know there was something I was avoiding, because he noticed I was off. But, when he noticed we weren't going anywhere (I was shutting down the only direction to go), I finally spilled it all.

I talked first about why it was scary to share (feelings from the past about being made to take responsibility when my parents couldn't deal with not living up to their self-image).

Then, I mentioned my opinion that he should have sent me home, but also how I understood that I was complicated (he said challenging) and it is hard to do that with me.

I talked about how I was trying to say things and they got shut down by him not being attuned and how I still couldn't really feel those topics were important enough to bring up anymore.

And finally, I talked about the thing he mentioned/did which majorly triggered me. I don't know exactly why, though T said something like "we can guess" (meaning he thinks he knows why) and I said that we "shouldn't guess" unless I get more details about it from the part who was freaked out. And he thought that was really good, because it wasn't me being in outright denial/invalidation, but just trusting (other parts of) myself that if there is stuff there, I can kind of accept it.

He just stayed warm, positive, smiled, stayed close. He didn't seem offended or defensive at all. He didn't apologize or explain at all (probably he knew that would freak me out and cause me to feel he was being defensive and like I needed to take responsibility). He kind of just listened and accepted what I said without making any comment of his own. So, from that end, it's kind of hard to feel it's "done," because I'm still waiting for the invalidation or abuse or abandonment that should come, since he didn't react much. I told him that too.

I also talked about the confusion I'm feeling, though only vaguely and metaphorically. It's so hard to put words to. So, he felt completely lost in that part of the conversation, because I couldn't tell him directly...as it felt imposing on him to discuss specifically the positive, attachment relationship that is being internalized. Like...I don't have a right to it somehow, and if he wanted to label it, that would be OK, but I can't put that label on him without his permission first. However, I also can't ask his permission, lol.

***Triggers for touch in therapy***
There was a brief hug at the end after we talked about all that. It was kind of, I guess, his response to me feeling like I needed some sort of closure to know things were OK. Anyway, so I had to ask him, because I can't fathom it still, "Are you sure this isn't the worst thing ever?" And he called me a goofball about five times. And he seemed to have more to say, said that he has a response, but it's hard to share or something, like he doesn't know exactly how to put it. So, I told him no to push himself to do so. Then I told him it was making me stressed out and I would obsess about it all weekend. Then he said he'd tell me, but I kept interrupting him, and ultimately didn't let him, because I felt manipulative and he should only tell me if/when he thinks it's the right time/way, whatever it is. I know it's not fathomable that I could imagine it's bad, but part of me does.

Anyway, I wish I were able to be OK with asking for him to tell me and letting him do so, but for now I'm really trusting that I will find out if/when the time is right whatever it is he wanted to say. It would be nice if the time was right sooner rather than later, though...
(((Cat))) Sorry for not replying to your post earlier. It was good to be able to talk to him about it. I saw him again today and it renewed my obsession with knowing what he is holding back. But, I also cannot just let myself ask. I keep going to shame-filtered ideas on what he didn't say or why he didn't say it. Frowner I have told him as much, at least.

So, the IOP might not be an option after all. They can't give me a quote on the cost until 11/5, when a manager gets back. But, they said it's probably going to be at least three times what my insurance quoted me for the daily rate, if not more...yay, it's happening AGAIN, but with in network providers this time. Also, there is at least a three-four week additional waiting list at this time, because they take referrals from the inpatient program before outside people. And, contrary to what I was told before, seeing my own T, plus doing their program will be more complicated than it at first seemed. The first intake person didn't seem to think my T needed to be involved, but the lady who called me today said if I were going to continue an existing, intensive treatment, T would need to coordinate extensively. :/ I don't think T has the time to do that. So, I'm waiting to see what happens, not canceling my P appointment, but I'm not too optimistic that this is going to be the solution.

Also, the potential adjunct I emailed says she isn't in-network, despite being listed as in-network on a T listings website. My plan won't let me search for anyone with experience with dissociation or give much in the way of details about the people...even what their degree is in! I'm getting...really dejected. Frowner

And when things get hard, inevitably, I give up and push through on my own, because it's far less triggering doing that than trying to get help and failing repeatedly. So much past stuff dragged up in recognizing that help is not available to me. Easier to dissociate needing it, by far.
Yaku... I'm so sorry that insurance is causing you such anguish and causing you to get triggered all over the place. It's darn shame that those who pay for insurance and are trying so hard to get the right help they need to improve their lives are made to jump through so many hoops and then get denied the financial assistance.

I hope you and your T will find a way to heal this rupture and you get back to that place of trust with him again. I know your T is good for you and you will work this out. After that you will likely feel the relationship is stronger and can whether all kinds of disruption or interference.

Thinking of you and sending hugs
TN
(((SP))) (((Cat))) (((TN)))

Saw the psychiatrist. He agreed with my self-assessment, thought the program would be really good for me, and has referred me in (assuming we can afford it), without pressure to be on meds. Something he said at the end about being really sorry for what I went/am going through threw me into a semi-crisis...

I feel (again) like I lied, misrepresented my family, told on my parents, and I'm freaking out. I want to call back and tell him it wasn't all that bad. Obviously, I won't. Worse is it is one parent's birthday today and I have to call them and trauma has been coming up about them and now I just told on them and I don't know how I can stand to have that conversation. I'm going to do it after band, when other people will still be around me, just because that feels safer (they weren't home early in the day when I could do it with H nearby, as he's on vacation the next couple days).

I am a bad person who makes up bad things that happened, and puts myself through hell, for seemingly no reason at all...that's what I feel like right now.

Can anyone here normalize this "crisis of telling" for me right now? Please?
(((Yaku))) What you're experiencing seems SO normal to me. You received messages, probably both implicitly and explicitly, that you were not supposed to share the family secrets. You were made to feel that you could not tell. As a child, that was really important to pick up on those messages, however subtle they were, so that you could survive. You needed to survive so you did whatever you could. You bear the effects now Frowner So, for me, it makes complete sense that you'd feel like you are "telling" on your parents. And I'm sure it is stirring up intense feelings of being "wrong" or "bad." This is normal...however, you are NOT bad, wrong, telling on anyone. Just know that your psychiatrist and T are not there to judge your parents. They are there to provide support to YOU. This does not involve any type of judgment to your parents. They are there to help you process your experience...because your experience IS your experience.

I so hope you can take some time for yourself and take care. So sorry you're going through this. Hugs Yaku.
(((Jillian))) (((SP))) (((erica)))

Thanks for the support. I called the one whose birthday it was and now I'm so sure they are good, other than the abandonment, and the other bad stuff didn't happen. I am so confused. I see T today. I feel in trouble for telling, but I also feel like T will be frustrated, 'cause he has heard those parts directly about these "memories" and I am sliding back to where I can't even be neutral about it or give the benefit of the doubt, withhold judging against them. I just...can't. There's no.way I can see this person as bad. I'm invested not to, because I'm practically modeled right after them in almost every way. I'm terribly lost right now...and afraid I'll never have even a general sense of what is true. I don't want to reject parts of me who got hurt, but to believe something awful about another person which could have just been a nightmare or a transposed memory of a different person, some sort of fear I had st the time...that would be worse by far.
Another update, because I think this rupture is officially huddled, as I finally was able to hear what T was holding back from my last Friday's session and why, so I'm not obsessing anymore. Basically, he said that he really likes me, has warm feelings toward me and connecting with me, which have come up in our last few sessions (though from past conversations, I know he has felt care for and enjoyment of me previously). He said a couple of weeks ago, for example, we were having a conversation and it felt kind of like being a dad talking to his daughter, that kind of warm feelings. He said his reasoning for not telling me in those moments or when I asked last week were simply that it would have been weird at the moment, in the context at hand. I get that, since dad-related stuff coming up for me, so mentioning feeling fatherly or warmth toward me when I was in an avoidance mode, probably would not have been successful.

I have a lot of feelings about what he shared. On one level, I kind of already knew it (spiritually having a sense of him being a dad figure), but having a very strong resistance to actually connecting to it. Also, when he said it, there was loud objecting about that not being for us, not something we get to have, some way we're making him be bad to break that rule. I don't know. I'm still processing. It feels like...it's just not supposed to be. I think we gave up on having someone like T a very long time ago. And it's hard to undo it... Frowner

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