Oh JM

I'm starting to cry. What you have written is so touching and I feel so lucky that you have been able to confide in all of us. How could we NOT be here for you? Take a look in the mirror - you will see someone who is ALWAYS there for us. You have helped me out so much in the short time that I have belonged to this forum. Most recently, YESTERDAY!!!!!!!

I am so happy that you had such a wonderful and understanding response from your T. She is amazing! Now I feel that I should come clean too. Yes, I have driven past my T's house. Not to stalk, but just out of curiosity. I do like the way you explained this though. Wanting to have something you can't have. I'm not ready to tell her this though. But, I will keep it in mind. And I do understand the thing about keeping secrets from your T, interferes with your therapy. Hmmm..... gotta think on that one.

I'm so glad you were able to find a way to cope with your pain. We all need you here.

PL

JM, this is super that you brought this up. I know it will be relevant to many folks. Boundaries aren't easily defined and this is a great example of how complex they can be.

Shrinklady

quote:

Take a look in the mirror - you will see someone who is ALWAYS there for us.

PL - I couldn't have said it any better.

JM - I am amazed that you were feeling so low, but you still were able to reach out and help other people right here on this forum, including me, even in the middle of the night, on more than one occasion.

I understand that you would feel guilty about driving by, but I don't think it's close to being reprehensible. And NOT just because I've done it...

I was driving one day on one of my "normal routes" and I could swear I saw my son's T in the yard with her kids. We live in small town so this happening is not out of the question. But since then, I often choose to go this way on purpose to feel closer to her, even though something she said to me about where she lives makes me think it may not be her house after all. Sometimes I feel guilty about driving by, especially if I find myself slowing down to see if I can spot some sign that it is hers. We've all done things that we feel may cross the line, but you've talked to your T now and she has accepted it and still accepts you.

I am so glad you didn't take a drink or hurt yourself, JM. In the short time I've been on this board you've become very important to me, you've helped me deal with some really difficult times, and I really do care about you.

OW

((((PL)))) ((((Woodensoul)))) ((((OW))))

Gee I didn't mean to start a confession board. But I appreciate you guys stepping up so I don't feel so alone. I am feeling kind of down for some reason tonight. I think that sometimes follows such vulnerable raw exposure. Like "did I do the right thing?"

I know I did by telling my T and I REALLY REALLY know she will never leave me and there is nowhere we can't go when it comes to my feelings. It was an amazing feeling to be heard in such a gentle manner. So I guess I am feeling the after effects of full exposure. What could I possibly be afraid to talk about after this?? But I DO have some very sensitive stuff surfacing so knowing just how safe I am, I am confident I can manage.

I've read every one of your accounts and I appreciate your curiosities and frustrations too. There certainly is a forceful desire to be close to them. But My T said the only place this is available is in her office. I will not find a maternal connection to her anywhere else, not even in her home. It's true. I've said it before, I'll say it again, "I've got the very best of her there is available." But thank you for being so brave to share too. As I sit here and read your accounts I wonder why I feel so ashamed. I can understand and sympathize with all of you better than I do myself. So it is good for me to know I do not act a lone and it really isn't a reprehensible act. -There's that word again. My father convinced me I was at a very early age. Misbehaving or needing correction meant I was a monster. My T does not treat me like a monster and seems so puzzled by my fears.

WS,I've been meaning to tell you how much I like your tag line "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the straps."

Shrinklady, boundaries complex? How so? I wish it weren't so heartbreaking is all. Please know that all the positive feelings I was experiencing about the boundaries were and still are very true. I do like knowing where they are and when I stay within the parameters I like how good and safe they make me feel. And I don't usually slam into them like this. This is not my typical behavior. But there is a strong pull sometimes that is hard to resist. But I will definitely keep an open dialogue with my T now. There is no reason not to. Right?

Anyway, I really appreciate all the support from everyone. This has been more difficult than I've let on I am sure. That tends to be my MO.
JM

quote:

There certainly is a forceful desire to be close to them. But My T said the only place this is available is in her office. I will not find a maternal connection to her anywhere else, not even in her home.

JM

Quite a while back before I told my T about all my transference feelings, I said that I was having trouble realizing that ours was a "business" relationship. She told me that if we were friends, and we met for coffee and talked about our kids, jobs, lives etc.... that the feelings wouldn't be the same. What I was feeling was created by the situation and I wouldn't feel it anywhere else. Since then, I have come to realize that our relationship is much more than "business," and I've told her so. But that being said, it is not a "friend" relationship and as much as I still want to be her friend, daughter, sister..... I really do understand that I am getting the best of her right there in the therapy room and I wouldn't get it anywhere else. Some of the things I have told her, I would NEVER tell a friend.

I'm not really ready to tell her I know where she lives yet, but maybe I will. Sometimes I surprise myself at what comes out in my sessions. If we are anywhere close to that subject, and I feel comfortable, I just might spill the beans.

PL

quote:

Some of the things I have told her, I would NEVER tell a friend.

You got that right!

Not to mention my T told me that she does not return her friends calls as promptly and frequently as she does mine. LOL!

quote:

I'm not really ready to tell her I know where she lives yet, but maybe I will. Sometimes I surprise myself at what comes out in my sessions. If we are anywhere close to that subject, and I feel comfortable, I just might spill the beans.

PL, Just make sure YOU are ready. I've learned that we are highly suggestable beings and need to take things at our own pace. While I think it's a good idea it's important to know what you can handle. Listen to me try to mother you. Sorry.

Thanks Mom (I mean JM )

Actually, my T once told me that I was very suggestible so I'll keep that in mind. Hmm.... wonder what she meant by that?

PL

quote:

I have spent years having to cross a boundary before i could tell what too far was. After a few very painful and regrettable errors of judgment, i swung to the opposite extreme and tried my utmost to never want or ask for anything to avoid that kind of pain. It is taking some practice but i am finally starting to have room for both my needs and still be able to respect others needs and that is really the whole point of boundaries isn't it?

HB,
Yep, yep, yep! That's been my experience too. When I was younger I longed to fit in somewhere and never felt like I did and was too painfully shy to try. My FOO had no boundaries and as the youngest in the dysfunctional family of five children, I was usually the one who got stepped on and trampled over. As a young adult in my exploration of friendships grew I began to test the waters a little more bravely and suffered some hurtful consequences of drawing close to others. (we all know how deep that really runs) As a result I finally started pulling away as you mentioned, in the opposite direction in order to avoid that kind of pain and rejection. Now I feel as if I am able to explore again through my T and some very healthy friendships and _very patient friends_ I might add. So this boundary violation for me was probably a good learning experience. I like how you put it "to learn to make room for my needs and still respect the needs of others."

I used to think that a boundary meant "You're not wanted!!!" But I am learning that is not true at all. Boundaries show us where we don't belong, but more importantly they accentuate where we DO belong and I am finally learning that is it safe to move toward that. My T outlines it sort of like this: "Here is where you belong JM (she doesn't really call me JM) You are free to frolic and run about, soak it in, absorb it, breathe it in, experience it all you want. Just stay away from my house you psycho!" Ok she didn't really say that. But you know what I mean.

I guess if children can't be expected _not_ to make mistakes in this process, then neither can we. As humans we learn by them. At least we hope so.

quote:

But the beating yourself up guilt thing, there is nothing good or helpful about that and just for the record, you really should stop doing it.

(Hands over bat) (But probably has large supply of extra bats hidden in closet)
My T has tried to disarm me for nearly three years now. Nice try though. I'll see what i can do about finding that banner though.

Thanks HB.
JM

This "googling" business brings to mind some things I'm working on right now, myself. Like, there's some things that've happened to me that I haven't really told...anyone? Well, I told my parents back when they happened, but they didn't believe me, and I sort-of haven't managed to talk to anyone about them since.

They're not...that...bad, really. In the grand scheme of things. But I've had this enormous reticence to talk about them. If I think about them in terms of the Google thing, it makes it a bit easier, I guess.

*sigh* Hello, vague post. Did I write you? Looks like I did. *sigh*

Hi Wynne,
I hope that you don't mind that I take a stab at this. I think I get what you're saying. How could something that seems to be not _that_ bad provoke an enormous resistance to talk about? As you know, we are often faced with inner conflict between our intellect and our emotions. (Left brain, right brain dominancy) As simple as that is to state, it remains quite a conunndrum: If we know that, why can't we over rule it? So you've had me thinking...see the smoke?

The googling thing seemed more harmless than my emotions dictated it was. Can you say meltdown? And intellectually you "believe" these things to _not_ be a big deal as your parents reinforced that belief by discounting your story. How sad, BTW! So you had no choice but to adopt their beliefs as your own. Your parents are your window to the world. You see what they tell you to see. Imagine you are 2 years old and your parents have been telling you that a bird is a dog every since you could point and talk. Every time you see a bird you think dog! You grow up "knowing" and believing a bird is a dog. In your case, your parents said not a big deal, you intellectually buy that, but your emotions never did! Alas the struggle.

Emotions are strong Wynne, and once you start the therapeutic process they are not going to take the back seat any longer to the condescending left brained (hey you're not in your right mind anyway) intellectual snob they share a cranium with. Emotions is where we struggle to get in our therapy. Throw intellect and cognition out the window, say good-bye to reason, because all this time you've been thinkin you're crazy you're finally in your right mind!

Hey, it may not be timeless literary genius, but I gave it my best shot. In fact, it may find its way to the cutting room floor shortly. (the finger's on the delete button)

No deletin'. S'good.

quote:

In your case, your parents said not a big deal, you intellectually buy that, but your emotions never did! Alas the struggle.

Oh ya!!!

This is driving me crazy in therapy. I think that so many things are "not a big deal," and I keep hearing my father say, "Get over it!" My T says it is a big deal and I need to stop listening to the "get over it."

Great analogy JM about the dog and bird. Makes perfect sense to me. Of course, who am I to make sense out of anything? That's why I'm going to therapy!

Anyway, all this jumpin' from the left side to the right side is a heck of a lot of work! But I know, someday it will be worth it all.

PL

Wynne,
I really agree with what both JM and PL said, but I wanted to come at it from one more angle (of course ) When we grow up without attunement or attachment, our emotional needs are not only not met, but we fail to learn to regulate our emotions. Even worse, we are met with bad outcomes when we express our feelings. So we learn to avoid feeling certain ways because it either got us into trouble or left us feeling really overwhelmed. Anything that repeatedly stresses us will be labeled "dangerous" by our limbic system.

So in order to avoid these "dangerous" emotions, we learn to stay away from ANYTHING that will evoke them. (Which is why people who struggle with this type of stuff tend to not be able to see all possible responses, they're hemmed in by their adversions). Often, the things we don't want to speak about will evoke the emotions that we're trying to avoid, hence we stay away from those events or things because they caused an emotional response we couldn't handle.

Now one of the more interesting things about the brain that my T has talked about alot is that when our amgydala, which is fairly unsophisticated, screams, get out now!! Our large frontal lobe and coginitive capabilities will create a rational that justifies doing what our amygdala is screaming at us to do. Hence the amydala is screaming DO NOT TALK ABOUT THAT, DANGEROUS, our cognitive mind steps in and says "that's no big deal, don't make such a fuss, why bring that up? You're going to look like a whiney, overly sensitive idiot getting upset over that" but really its only a primitive part of our mind yelling "Keep away!!"

Hope that makes sense. You ask the best questions.

AG

I read this thread and then was at the gym, a fertile zone for thinking if there ever was one. These two things kept going around in my head in reference to my MD, Dr. X:

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:
I've said it before, I'll say it again, "I've got the very best of her there is available."

JM, I have consoled myself with your exact words, knowing that what I have received from him is the best I can get of what is available. If it helps, know that what we get from our transference objects is something that those close to them do NOT get, so it is special in its own way and inaccessible even to those who we think are closer to him/her then us.

quote:

Originally posted by puppy lover:
She told me that if we were friends, and we met for coffee and talked about our kids, jobs, lives etc.... that the feelings wouldn't be the same. What I was feeling was created by the situation and I wouldn't feel it anywhere else.

I have often lamented, "Why did I have to meet him like this?" as if I could have randomly run into him out in the world and we would have fallen in love or something. Yeah right! We could have ONLY met the way that we did, as our feelings were created by the medical situation.

Were any of you struggling with these boundaries/transference issues engaged in what is called "emotional incest" with one or both of your parents? My mom would vent to me, tell me things I did not need to know about her life, her relationship with my dad, etc., which is, of course, a boundary transgression. I know I processed this as parental affection, as parental love, as a feeling of being special enough to be confided in. In my situation, I am longing for boundary transgressions with Dr. X. There have already been some with him, nothing salacious, but they have happened, and I think one reason why my transference is so strong is because he is giving the kind of love that I recognize through his transgressions.

SG

quote:

I struggle so much with feeling unwanted and i spend a lot of time and energy wanting to know where i stand and what other people think. I never realised until you worded it like you did, that i am actually trying to find out if and/or where i belong. And because i am so scared that if i do something wrong i will be shut out or sent away
i find it hard to explore and then constantly feel unwelcome and like i don't belong.

HB, I know how frightening and _confusing_ that can be. We were designed with an inate need to have a sense of belonging. Pack animals have a pecking or social order, and even solitary animals have territorial boundaries to define where they belong. How much more so does a complex human being especially a child, need to know where they stand and where they belong. To feel a sense of belonging helps us to thrive and gives us confidence to explore who we are. Without a place of belonging in the family unit it is difficult, if not impossible to find our place in the ever greater world around us. We can never really be satisfied if we don't know where we belong and fit in. We really don't ever fully develop a sense of identity.

I don't know about you, but I grew up in a FOO where boundaries didn't exist. That telling someone they couldn't have something that belonged to me was wrong (I'm not just talking about sharing, I'm talking intrusion) My older siblings would bully me to make sure they got what they wanted. Even as I grew up my father would decide that one of my siblings needed something that belonged to me more than I did and he'd give it to them or insist that I give it to them and berate me if I refused. My sister just older than me has always said, "I need this" rather than, "May I borrow this?" - long story.

Anyway, w/o boundaries a child is naturally going to be confused and this will manifest itself in different ways. I would be the child standing back (unnoticed) watching other children playing together on the playground with no idea how to jump in and interact. If someone kindly showed interest in me I would feel afraid, awkward, and uncertain as to how to behave. I was quite socially impaired. The world has always felt like a merry-go-round and I a lonely spectator as I stood by watching it go round and round and never quite able to figure out how to get on let alone feel like I was wanted there. I never knew what it was like to feel included, even if others tried to make me feel included. To me THAT is a world without boundaries which I believe are pivotol in defining our place of belonging.

My therapist has always seemed perplexed as I describe the number of friends that I have and how even when I am surrounded by them I can still feel painfully alone. Like we may all be on the same playground, but I am still not on the merry-go-round with them. Intellectually I know my friends love me and enjoy being with me. They tell me so and demonstrate it. But that vital connection in the attachment process in my developmental years to give me a sense of belonging was never made, so everything still feels so foreign nd blurred to me. I have learned to acclaimate (and fake it) the older I get, but it is still extremely painful.

A couple of months ago I had a great epiphany on boundaries that I shared on forum. If you'd like to read it, here is a link:
...I Like Boundaries

I think what it boils down to is after a very long time spent with intimate sessions with my T, feeling her 100% acceptance of me no matter what came up, and my trust and security for her grow, and never feeling violated by her, I slowly began to recognize that I do have a place with her. A true place of belonging with her. This relationship is real and it is ours. Mine and my T's and these are moments that no one else is allowed to interfere in that time she has set aside for me and for me alone.

As afraid and frustrated as I was about having boudaries with someone I wanted to be closer to, I came to realize that to get a different type of closeness as a friend or family member, I would have to give up the closeness and intimacy I already have. That all relationships have boundaries. Sometimes I think that is why sexual fantasies/transference come into play so hard, because those are the most intimate moments when there are _fewest_ boundaries than anywhere else. To be that initimate, that needed, that desired, and that important, and completely belonging to someone else who equally belongs to you and feels the same way about you. (Not to mention the erroneous notion that the honeymoon phase would last indefinitley) In order to get any of that, I'd have to give up the fact what I already have that her husband, children, friends, co-workers can never have. The 100% unselfish part of her where it is always all about me, and all for me. No other relationship can thrive on those terms.

I have never shared this experience here before and I hope that it translates ok. A few months ago I went for a massage right after one of my sessions. As I was lying on the table all cozy and warm, feeling great, I began to have an image of myself as a child (as I often do) sitting on my T's lap feeling loved and important, she was happy and playful and loving with me and then suddenly -I was transfered into her womb. Seriously I had this vision, this image of being in my T's womb and I could actually feel the surroundings and knowing it was her. It felt wonderful and I didn't purposely bring this on, it just happened and transpired on its own. It happened in an instant and it was over in an instant, but I can vividly recall the feelings. I even told her about it at our next session and she was so accepting and touched by that. She actually welcomed it and allowed me to share her womb in that way. She didn't try to dismiss it, she didnt laugh at me, she seemed very happy to hear this though she's never had a client relate that experience before. She said it was a strong desire on my part to feel that close and that intimate with her and it reveals a strong sense of safety and trust I must feel with her in order to experience what it was like in her womb where an infant is most vulnerable and solely dependent on its mother. She felt this was an extremely positive shift in our relationship and welcomed it whole heartedly and is honored tha I feel that strongly about her. I cherish having the vision, but I cherish sharing it with her even more because now it is "our" experience.

So in quite a long winded attempt HB, what I am saying is an acute trust has to develop with an even greater sense of safety that develops with that trust. Maybe you wont be transfered into your T's womb (especially since HE doesn't have one, but who knows where your imagination can take you) But sharing builds trust and I keep hearing that you hold back, and that's ok. It will come in time, but I think you have to be willing to let come up what comes up and share it even when it scares the #$!! out of you. If you don't you will never know it. But you are the one who knows what you are dealing with and can handle right now. Sometimes we have to test the waters a few times before we jump in. I also can't ignore the fact of the breech you had with your former T as being a huge factor in letting go and trusting again. So talk about this with your T. Ask him what he thinks you should do. And if he's like most T's he will turn that back around and ask you to answer it. How did these intelligent people get through college without us right there giving them all the answers??

Sorry this was such a long winded digression. If anyone is still awake or semi-concsious please tap on screen; once for awake, twice for barely conscious.
JM

My therapist out of the blue told me to google her today. To see her doctoral discertation. I swear it made me think she was reading this board and knew who I was.

I just had to add this to this discussion as I thought it was a very odd coincidence.

JM

*tap*

Wow! It's gonna take me all day to process this. Amazing! And the fact that you were able to tell her shows so much strength and courage. You're making my heart melt. And you are right, it is something that you and you alone share with your T. And an image that can help you in the rough times. She is a wonderful and caring T.

I really do trust my T, but there are still things that I carry deep inside that I'm afraid to bring up. Someday they will hopefully come out. Yesterday though, as we were talking, she told me a story about her son. (You all know I have son issues) When she was done, I asked her a question about it. I wasn't being nosy, just curious. She thought for a moment, and then she answered my question in detail. It was something quite personal about her and I'm sure not information that she shares with clients. But, it really did relate to our topic and what I am going through. It dawned on me that not only do I trust her, but SHE TRUSTS ME! She trusted me not to judge her (which is a big thing I'm working on in my daily life), and she trusted me with something that you just wouldn't bring up in a casual conversation. This wasn't crossing any boundaries because it was helpful information for me, not just idle chat. And, she is hugely boundaried! It just once again affirmed for me that our relationship is real and that I really can tell her anything and she will not look upon me with disgust, or tell me I'm an idiot or stupid for having these feelings. Of course I have to keep reminding myself of this when I'm too chicken to tell her something.

Thanks JM for sharing this with us. I'm sure that was difficult too.

PL

quote:

As Arnie put it so well, I'll be back. Cool

And we'll be here patiently waiting to hear from you again. Hope you get relief soon.

PL

quote:

*tap*

Tee hee hee! You guys amuse me and make me feel good at the same time!

I can understand why it may have stirred some feelings up for you, it did for me too. Good feelings, but there does tend to be an ever so slight hurtful twist to them deep inside. I notice that it is easy to trigger each other here and we certainly need to take some moments to self-regulate once in a while. I am not real good at that yet, so I understand the need to draw back a little to process what you are feeling.

I can't help but to think of what Shrinklady said yesterday:

quote:

In my work as a therapist, I'm amazed at how much change can occur for the client without going anywhere near the heavy stuff.

So I guess what she might be saying is you don't have to feel like you have to give it all up at once in order to make progress. Correct me if I am wrong. Therapy doesn't have to be painful??

Yeah I am having some inner rumblings myself from my exposure. It is ok. I've survived worse so this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

And OW, I am SOOOOOO relieved I will not be the first to unleash your winds of fury! Heaven help the poor soul who gets the fiery end of that. (JK)

???........Hrm...wrong thread. You'll know where it belongs though. Pssst...has any body seen my mind?

quote:

Originally posted by woodensoul:
My therapist out of the blue told me to google her today. To see her doctoral discertation. I swear it made me think she was reading this board and knew who I was.

I just had to add this to this discussion as I thought it was a very odd coincidence.

Hey (((WS))) That would feel like an odd coincidence. Did you say, "GOOGLE?? What's a google?"

I am sure it is just a coincidence. You were really triggered by all of this and your relationship with your T is unchanged. If she had a notion of any of this she would come right out and talk to you about it. Not torment you with a passive hint.

Hey (((JM)))

You are so right about the Google? What's google thing.

I think my face turned bright red. I acted all surprised about her discertation which I already knew about and then said "Yeah I'll have to do that." I am not good at acting. lol

quote:

What's google thing

WS, I have NO idea what you are talking about. I've never heard of such a thing.

It's nice to see you returning even if it is in little bits.

I cant find anything about my T on the net, i think it would affect me a lot if i did find something that i didnt want to.

quote:

I cant find anything about my T on the net, i think it would affect me a lot if i did find something that i didnt want to.

You are wise! I didn't realize it until I did look her up! It was a strange alienating feeling, like "oh yeah she has this whole other life I don't know about or have anything to do with." Then I felt like a spy or something. It helped that she told me to google her so now I feel a little less guilty. I did tell her that I already knew about that. lol

PL Yeah you shoulda seen my face. I swear I didn't even have to tell her that I already googled her. My red cheeks were a dead give away! (I told her later in an email message that I had already googled her) Ugh